Aegis Vanguard - Twin Engine Deep Space Fighter

[Scotterius]

Well, consider this: if the cockpit blows up you're gone anyway and this plane is built to lose a lot of pieces (*except the cockpit* ) and still come back home. so you should work on the premise that the nose won't blow up

 This was my thought too.  If your going to put eggs in any basket...it should be the one you are sitting in! Wait...that sounds strange.

 

Oh...I got a vanguard.  Even if it isn't fast, it looks a great attack platform for caps.

[Boildown]

Its to solve convergence problems.  Center-line mounted guns will converge at essentially the same place at all ranges.  Wing mounted guns will converge at best at one place depending on the range (although in Star Citizen I think even fixed mount guns can gimbal on the fly enough to solve convergence problems, it must not be perfect or this wouldn't be a consideration).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_harmonisation

[Panpiper]

Even if it isn't fast, it looks a great attack platform for caps.

It will be fast, that is my conviction. It's not just because CIG 'said' it would be fast, but because if it is not fast, it will be absolutely the worst thing anyone could ever pilot. Imagine a 'fighter' that has most of it's firepower firing fixed forward but is less maneuverable than other fighters 'and' no faster. It does not matter how much armor that fighter has, it is a sitting duck and will be unable to fight back as other fighters literally fly rings around it. Add to that that the cost of this fighter is MAJORLY higher than other fighters, and there is absolutely no way CIG will saddle us with a lame duck.

 

Given the excitement some of the people internal to CIG have for this ship concept, it is clear to me that this will not be a sitting duck for other fighters, it is going to have a strength it can play to. Given CIG references to speed and the fact that it has huge engines, plus that speed is crucial to it's basic strafing mission, I expect this ship WILL be able to accelerate out of the range of more nimble fighters, giving them only a limited time in which they can use their superior maneuverability to bring fire to bear.

 

This tactic of using superior speed to engage more maneuverable fighters has been used historically with great success. I expect that is exactly what CIG is going for here, in addition to greater range and damage tolerance, which accounts for it's price differential.

[Osclin]

It may be faster than the Hornet(but with a moderately-significantly longer time to max velocity, or maybe even the same speed), but I seriously doubt it'll be faster than the m50/350.  And that wouldn't be a death sentence either.  In the time it took for an escorting fighter to turn and accelerate to chase,  the vanguard could open up a decent lead, making the fighter pursuit very much linear, leaving the turret gun(or main guns once at max speed and decoupled) in the perfect position to take out trailing fighters.  While undoubtedly faster the racers would still have to chase down a much more heavily armed/armoured ship, all the while leaving their escortees without fighter cover as your own wingmates blasted hell out of the intended target.  

[Olrodkeir]

It may be faster than the Hornet(but with a moderately-significantly longer time to max velocity, or maybe even the same speed), but I seriously doubt it'll be faster than the m50/350. And that wouldn't be a death sentence either. In the time it took for an escorting fighter to turn and accelerate to chase, the vanguard could open up a decent lead, making the fighter pursuit very much linear, leaving the turret gun(or main guns once at max speed and decoupled) in the perfect position to take out trailing fighters. While undoubtedly faster the racers would still have to chase down a much more heavily armed/armoured ship, all the while leaving their escortees without fighter cover as your own wingmates blasted hell out of the intended target.

This is kind of how I envisioned a vanguard attack. Roll in fast and deal as much damage as possible then keep going right through the formation. Let the turret keep fighters off you until clear of the fighter nest. Once clear turn and do it again.

A solo vanguard should do a lot of damage and focused fire from a few should be devastating.

[Panpiper]

I agree that the Vanguard certainly will not be faster than racers or the speediest of fighters. But those fighters that can keep up with a Vanguard will find the fire of two size two guns from the Vanguard's turret to be harrowing, especially given that their pursuit vector will largely line them up to be easy targets. And while a fleeing Vanguard might also be a similarly easy to hit target, it can take a LOT more fire than the racer/fighter.

[Reavern]

Well, consider this: if the cockpit blows up you're gone anyway and this plane is built to lose a lot of pieces (*except the cockpit* ) and still come back home. so you should work on the premise that the nose won't blow up

 

I'm more concerned about head-on collisions with other ships or debris or asteroids, which wouldn't necessarily destroy the ship (because the Vanguard is very robust), but could disable most of its weapons because they're the leading objects on the Vanguard.

 

If the Vanguard takes a shot to the cockpit, the pilot will be dead -- the same as any other ship. Whereas a shot to the nose wouldn't kill the pilot, but it could disable all of the Vanguard's forward-firing weapons, and leave it virtually defenseless.

 

I've had my Super Hornet's nose shot up and Canard Turret destroyed on numerous occasions; it didn't stop me from continuing to fight. If all of the SH's weapons had been mounted in the nose, I wouldn't have been able to fight. This isn't limited to a ship's nose. If all of a ship's weapons are concentrated on one particular part of the ship, they could all be disabled by a lucky (or unlucky) shot. It's a very bad idea, which is why most ship's haven't been designed that way. I can't think of any other ship in Star Citizen that has all of its weapons concentrated on one part of the ship.

 

The Vanguard is such a large ship, there's no logical reason why the weapons can't be distributed around the ship.

[Noobskillz]

I bought the Vanguard and cant wait to see this thing in my hangar

[Scotterius]

This is kind of how I envisioned a vanguard attack. Roll in fast and deal as much damage as possible then keep going right through the formation. Let the turret keep fighters off you until clear of the fighter nest. Once clear turn and do it again.

 

I think this describes any bomber class with torpedoes, any day of the week...in almost any video game.  This is why the Vangaurd is going to be excellent.  The Gladiator may be able to avoid more incoming fire and the Tali will bring bigger fish.

 

If you take a look at the battle royale stats for this week you will find 3 or 4 Super Hornets in the top 100 space superiority fighters.  The rest...are Gladius (which besides being good, was having a free to fly week).  While I expect the hornet to be stronger than it is now eventually, the Gladius is for now an excellent defensive craft and will likely remain the best interceptor until the F8 lightning.

 

With this in mind:  a velocity of 190-210 might bring some limited impunity against the hornet as it stands today, but the Gladius will be a great reason to seriously worry about that second pass.

[Mister_Spud]

I'm more concerned about head-on collisions with other ships or debris or asteroids, which wouldn't necessarily destroy the ship (because the Vanguard is very robust), but could disable most of its weapons because they're the leading objects on the Vanguard.

 

If the Vanguard takes a shot to the cockpit, the pilot will be dead -- the same as any other ship. Whereas a shot to the nose wouldn't kill the pilot, but it could disable all of the Vanguard's forward-firing weapons, and leave it virtually defenseless.

 

I've had my Super Hornet's nose shot up and Canard Turret destroyed on numerous occasions; it didn't stop me from continuing to fight. If all of the SH's weapons had been mounted in the nose, I wouldn't have been able to fight. This isn't limited to a ship's nose. If all of a ship's weapons are concentrated on one particular part of the ship, they could all be disabled by a lucky (or unlucky) shot. It's a very bad idea, which is why most ship's haven't been designed that way. I can't think of any other ship in Star Citizen that has all of its weapons concentrated on one part of the ship.

 

The Vanguard is such a large ship, there's no logical reason why the weapons can't be distributed around the ship.

 

Being as the vanguard can hide its guns it should provide some protection in head on collisions if they weren't deployed or if you have time to put them away also anyone who might want to line up a missile or fly the ship into the front of the vanguard would be faced with the all the vanguard front facing weapons that could rip most ships to shreds or damage them enough to force them to change trajectory providing it is not a suicide run.

[Olrodkeir]

I think this describes any bomber class with torpedoes, any day of the week...in almost any video game. This is why the Vangaurd is going to be excellent. The Gladiator may be able to avoid more incoming fire and the Tali will bring bigger fish.

If you take a look at the battle royale stats for this week you will find 3 or 4 Super Hornets in the top 100 space superiority fighters. The rest...are Gladius (which besides being good, was having a free to fly week). While I expect the hornet to be stronger than it is now eventually, the Gladius is for now an excellent defensive craft and will likely remain the best interceptor until the F8 lightning.

With this in mind: a velocity of 190-210 might bring some limited impunity against the hornet as it stands today, but the Gladius will be a great reason to seriously worry about that second pass.

This style of flying will work for bomber's against heavier craft, but shouldn't work against fighters.

[Scotterius]

This style of flying will work for bomber's against heavier craft, but shouldn't work against fighters.

 I apologize, I did not make that clear.  I was referring to the vanguard attacking heavier craft.  A velocity of the Vanguard that surpasses the hornet's impedes the hornet when intercepting the Vanguard attacking the craft it is protecting.   The Gladius wont suffer from this.  The end speed of the Vanguard will likely influence the make up of  fighter composition on carriers and patrols.

 

I bought a vanguard, but my squad and I are more worried about killing them than flying them.  

[Panpiper]

 I bought a vanguard, but my squad and I are more worried about killing them than flying them.  

Missiles, in volume.

[Scotterius]

Last day to buy one!  Or should I say....'Three'.  

[Mister_Spud]

Last day to buy one!  Or should I say....'Three'.  

Because one is never enough.

[Debonair]

+1 with no melts

[Olrodkeir]

I apologize, I did not make that clear. I was referring to the vanguard attacking heavier craft. A velocity of the Vanguard that surpasses the hornet's impedes the hornet when intercepting the Vanguard attacking the craft it is protecting. The Gladius wont suffer from this. The end speed of the Vanguard will likely influence the make up of fighter composition on carriers and patrols.

I bought a vanguard, but my squad and I are more worried about killing them than flying them.

True to a point. We will have to see how CIG decides to run speed mechanics (top speeds, acceleration, etc.). These mechanics will determine a lot where it comes to the effectiveness of the vanguard. I don't think we can outright say the Gladius won't suffer from the same issue as the hornet (mostly because it appears as though the e hornet has been toned down for arena commander and the Gladius is a new entrant so it hasn't been *balanced yet).

[Ricko13]

A flying tank with twin sexy engines and a front mounted barrel monstrosity? 

 

Yes please!

 

I'm all for the concerns this ship will have against nimbler ships, but that's the pay to fly one monster of a ship!

 

Can't wait to fly it!

[Fintz]

Still all this frontal weapons make it perfect for an escort in long range missions , also do not forget the turret on top.Even if the Vanguards strafe speed will not be the best you are having a gunner to cover you.

[Ricko13]

Still all this frontal weapons make it perfect for an escort in long range missions , also do not forget the turret on top.Even if the Vanguards strafe speed will not be the best you are having a gunner to cover you.

 

True, but with the friends I have, they won't be able to hit the side of an Idris, let alone some nimble lil thing!

[Panpiper]

I am not convinced that the Vanguard will be a good long range escort fighter, long range, certainly, but escort fighter, not so much. The low maneuverability coupled with it's forward firing weapons means that more agile fighters will literally be able to fly rings around it, with it's return fire limited solely to it's turret. For the Vanguard to play to it's strengths, it needs to use superior speed to accelerate out of the range of a fighter engagement so as to turn back and come in for a frontal strafing run. Accelerating out of the range of the engagement means leaving behind whatever they are supposed to be escorting.

 

A smart pirate of course will leave boarding the prize for after the escort is dealt with, but while it is waiting for the escort to come back with it's strafe, it will certainly do what it needs to do to reduce the fire of its prize. Whomever is being escorted is not going to appreciate seeing their escort fly away, regardless if that is good tactics, given that they will then be subject to the undivided fire of their attacker, for at least a bit.

[Fintz]

Better let him drive then Less chances of collision.

[Panpiper]

True, but with the friends I have, they won't be able to hit the side of an Idris, let alone some nimble lil thing!

Sounds to me that your friends need to fly Freelancer Mis. Have autotargetting gimbals and seeking missiles, and their inability to target won't be so much an issue.

[Ricko13]

Sounds to me that your friends need to fly Freelancer Mis. Have autotargetting gimbals and seeking missiles, and their inability to target won't be so much an issue.

 

Now that's just cheating! But... yes... very true....

[Gremlich]

I view the Vanguard as more of a pursuit fighter than anything else. Its size evokes the A-26A, the P-61, Me 210/410, and even the P-47 (which really was, due to its more blunt force clompy capabilities, more an escort fighter and ground attack aircraft than anything else).

 

CIG really needs to characterize a given ship properly - because not everything is a true fighter.

 

The 890 Yacht is, well, a Yacht. Sure, guys wanna turn it into something else, but it will fail outside of its primary function as a pleasure/leisure craft with the "You dare pick on me!" attitude.

 

The Aurora - not a fighter in the military sense of the word, but it can be such in the right hands. Armed private cargo ship or roundabout. Armed enough to get it out of a situation

 

Ghost - stealthy ship, not a dog-fighter - more a Night-fighter role like the P-38M, FW-190 A5/R11, or Mosquito NF Mk II.

 

The Orion, Reclaimer and Carrack will not be attack ships beyond perhaps one time use.

 

You get the idea. People need to realize that we don't know how far modularity will go but we do know that most of it will be internal. 

 

The CIG ships are not swiss army knives and their advertising needs to reflect that. The specific combat role of ships vary and CIG needs to accurately portray a given ship. Looks do not dictate the role of the ship. Like saying this ship is a fighter just because it has two weapons (The German WWII Uhu)

 

 

Designation of the Vanguard as an "escort fighter" is accurate (from the wiki):

 

The escort fighter was a World War II concept for a fighter aircraft designed to escort bombers to and from their targets. An escort fighter needed range long enough to reach the target, loiter over it for the duration of the raid to defend the bombers, and return.

 

A number of twin-engined heavy fighters with high fuel capacity were designed for escort duties before World War II. Such heavy fighters largely failed in their intended escort role during the war, as they were outmaneuvered by more agile single-engined fighters. As the war progressed, longer-range fighter designs and the use of drop tanks allowed single-engined fighters to perform escort duties.