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Gargoyle

What will pedals do in space?

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Ok I'm a layman when it comes to pedals but, as far as I know, they are used to control lateral yaw i.e. rudder control.

 

In space there is no rudder, we'll have multi-directional thrusters replacing rudders and ailerons etc. Wouldn't these be better controlled from a second joystick, HAT switch or even the keyboard?

 

Am I seeing rudder pedals too one dimensionally here and is there more to them?

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Rudder pedals control the third direction of rotation, just the same as the twist axis on joysticks normally does. The advantage of pedals is just that you can control this rotation more exactly than with the twist axis and you don't move the other 2 axis unintentionally when yawing.

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It doesnt matter if you have a rudder or not, you will still have that kind of "function" just with a different resource, in this case using thrusters instead. As Maverick says, its just a more exact control compared to the twist axis etc. :)

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Ok I'm a layman when it comes to pedals but, as far as I know, they are used to control lateral yaw i.e. rudder control.

 

In space there is no rudder, we'll have multi-directional thrusters replacing rudders and ailerons etc. Wouldn't these be better controlled from a second joystick, HAT switch or even the keyboard?

 

Am I seeing rudder pedals too one dimensionally here and is there more to them?

 

There are 3 dimensions in this universe you can control, so you need 3 Axis of control.

 

 

 

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Pretty interesting to think about.  The shuttle actually had aerodynamic flight surfaces for re-entry and landings.  But in space it was completely reliant on 14 small thrusters on the fore/aft, port/starboard sides to make all attitude adjustments from one control stick.

 

Playing with my Aurora in the hanger mod, I kind of envisioned the left stick and pedals for flight controls and the right for weapons targeting hehe.  

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If you had pedals you can still use them for Yaw, or left and right on the ships axis.

 

It's good for 1. If you have a Joystick/ HOTAS with no yaw in the stick, 2. You have yaw on your stick but you prefer pedals, 3. If you're using Keyboard and mouse and you'd rather not have the trouble of hot keying yaw into or around WASD.

 

I personally will be using the yaw in my stick as I like the feel of it but obviously you may differ.

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So the pedals are only for yaw control and only do the same as a 'z' axis on a joystick (with more precision)

I don't have a 'z' axis on my joystick or pedals but I do have a load of coolie hats available, so I think I'll try using a hat for yaw control before splashing out on pedals. Maybe not the best way but I'll see how it goes :) 
 

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@Gargoyle Genesis is right, whatever you map your pedals to really XD

So no, pedals are not only for Yaw but can do the same job as the Z joystick axis

 

Yes, you could map yaw to a hat or rotary on your stick, I'd personally find it odd but if you get good with it you may find yourself gaining an edge over keyboard users

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I'd personally map peddles to roll and not yaw. Yaw and pitch are your two primary directional axis in space, roll is not. 

 

 

You can't apply the same thought as you would to atmospheric control to a space craft. On a plane, yaw is induced by rolling the aircraft and the rudder is used to keep the plane co-ordinated (following the natural arc of the curve). In space that doesn't matter. Roll will not induce yaw, and is just made for orientation correction, not directional control. Thus (to me anyway) it makes vastly more sense to have yaw and pitch mapped to the X and Y axis, and leave roll on the Z/peddles.

 

(This is also the way traditional space combat sims mapped their controls by default).

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I'd personally map peddles to roll and not yaw. Yaw and pitch are your two primary directional axis in space, roll is not. 

...

(This is also the way traditional space combat sims mapped their controls by default).

agree to that but in the end it is a question of what feels better

I'll definately try that one first.

 

Airplanes and therefore flightsims are an exception as the roll is also used for the actual turning maneuver so the roll becomes more important. In an aircraft the roll done by the ailerons is not clean as by 6dof it also incorporates a yaw too.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/turns.html describes that nicely the roll always gives you a yaw to the side you are rolling because of the change to the lift vector. In space you don't have that as you don't have a lift caused by movement of wings through air.

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I'm feeling an itch to try and escape into an atmosphere, when hunted by someone, to irritate him. Because of the atmospheric flight model his advantage in control (paddle => yaw) would turn into a disadvantage.

Could anyone freeze me pls until that feature is implemented? Damnit, now I'm back on the "Hype it - train"...

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agree to that but in the end it is a question of what feels better

I'll definately try that one first.

 

Airplanes and therefore flightsims are an exception as the roll is also used for the actual turning maneuver so the roll becomes more important. In an aircraft the roll done by the ailerons is not clean as by 6dof it also incorporates a yaw too.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/turns.html describes that nicely the roll always gives you a yaw to the side you are rolling because of the change to the lift vector. In space you don't have that as you don't have a lift caused by movement of wings through air.

Most people want to map space combat sim controls like they would atmospheric controls because it "feels more natural", and by that they mean more familiar. In actual fact it makes very little sense. Star Citizen's modelling of G-tolerance is about the only reason to consistently roll a spacecraft. And maybe for visual targeting depending on where the view obstructions are in the cockpit.

 

I play both flight sims and space combat sims and have never had an issue transitioning between the two maps. Z-axis yaw feels natural in a flight sim and very strange in a space combat sim, IMO. Then again I've never played using the "bank and yank" method of control popular in more arcade-like flight sims.

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I'd personally map peddles to roll and not yaw. Yaw and pitch are your two primary directional axis in space, roll is not. 

 

 

You can't apply the same thought as you would to atmospheric control to a space craft. On a plane, yaw is induced by rolling the aircraft and the rudder is used to keep the plane co-ordinated (following the natural arc of the curve). In space that doesn't matter. Roll will not induce yaw, and is just made for orientation correction, not directional control. Thus (to me anyway) it makes vastly more sense to have yaw and pitch mapped to the X and Y axis, and leave roll on the Z/peddles.

 

(This is also the way traditional space combat sims mapped their controls by default).

I prefer these mappings for most space games.

The only time might consider using joystick x input for roll and pedals for yaw is if the yaw rate is significantly nerfed compared to pitch and roll rates.

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Bank and Yank doesn't mean "arcade", it's the best way to make a major change in heading in a hurry, as your control surfaces are larger and G-force tolerance is much better. In space, much of the same applies: Your thrusters are positioned to provide more positive Gs than lateral Gs, and the pilot is in the same boat, being better able to withstand posutive Gs.

 

For SC, I'll map yaw to the Z axis like a rudder and roll to the Y axis, because I plan on "banking and yanking" exactly as I would in a flight sim to get a bogey in my sights. I've spent decades flying like that, so it comes naturally to me. If a target is off boresight, I just roll until the target cue is vertical, at the top of the HUD, then yank until he's in my HUD. Roll until our vectors align, then pitch as needed to get the guns on the target lead indicator. Minor yaw adjustments as needed.

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Bank and Yank doesn't mean "arcade",

If your plane doesn't immediately exceed critical AoA and flip into a spin or at least give you one hell of a wingdrop when you do it, yea, it does.

 

The only time that might not happen is a modern jet fighter simulator where the computer-controlled FBW system won't let the pilot exceed the critical AoA, or on a very select few fighter jets that are capable of maintaining control in a stall (I can think of exactly 3 that can do this -The F-22, the F-18 Super Hornet, and the Su-27. There are probably a couple of others, but not many).

 

Some aircraft have various things to mitigate that effect (like wing slots or slats), but pre-computer controlled FBW, almost all fighters have enough control authority to exceed the critical AoA if you yank the stick. If the sim doesn't model that, it's more arcade than sim as far as the flight model is concerned.
 
The beloved P-51 was actually really, really bad for that due to the semi-laminar airfoil. "Banking and yanking" that bird was a great way to put it into a spin.
 

 

. If a target is off boresight, I just roll until the target cue is vertical, at the top of the HUD, then yank until he's in my HUD. Roll until our vectors align, then pitch as needed to get the guns on the target lead indicator. Minor yaw adjustments as needed.

And that's faster than just yawing into position.. how exactly?

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Did any of you watch the "domestic emergency" Anvil Aerospace commercial for the Hornet?

 

At the point just after the 300-series ship pops out to try and shoot up the Hornet, the Hornet pilot hits his pedals causing the reverse thrusters to pop out allowing him to get up, over and behind the 300-series.

 

You can do that with pedals or anything else requiring an input, like shooting the turret weapons on the Hornet while still maintaining forward flight.

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What will pedals do?

 

The will help my Super Hornet recover from an uncontrollable counter-clockwise spin... into my uncontrollable clockwise spin.

 

...Bingo...

 

tumblr_mjgymrr4L51qcpkfeo2_500.gif

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Okay, "Bank and Yank" might seem a bit crude, but it is exactly that concept that all fighter pilots are taught for BFM. To point a fighter's weapons on target, you put the nose of your aircraft towards your enemy. In aircraft, that means banking the aircraft and pulling back on the stick until the desired rate of turn is achieved. A fighter pilot in a FBW aircraft has limited authority to do so, in that depending on the airframe and ordinance, a maximim of 5Gs in one plane might be all that is achieved, where 9Gs might be delivered in a different aircraft or loadout. In both scenarios, the motion on the stick might be identical, as the flight computer determines what the control surfaces will do. There's a decouple button on the stick, though, since overstressing the airframe in an emergency might be the only way to avoid turning into a lawndart, for example.

 

No fighter pilot is going to make a hard turn in combat by using the control surfaces with the least authority, that being the rudder. Sure, if I have the guy in my sights, minor corrections are perfect for applying a touch of rudder, or yaw, rather than playing with the other two axis, but in every sim I've played since, like, the dawn of high-fidelity sims, if you're in a dogfight, you're likely in a turning fight where you'll be doing a lot a Gs.

 

How does any of that reflect on SC? Well, if yaw thrusters have as much control authority as the pitch thrusters, not a bit. But we've already heard that some IFCS setups will actually automatically roll your craft in the direction of a turn and apply pitch, even if you've just applied yaw. Similar to what I've seen in a video for War Thunder's mouse controls. Why? because the ship has better thrusters for pitch and the pilot sustains positive Gs better than lateral Gs.

 

Edit for spelling

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Okay, "Bank and Yank" might seem a bit crude, but it is exactly that concept that all fighter pilots are taught for BFM. To point a fighter's weapons on target, you put the nose of your aircraft towards your enemy. In aircraft, that means banking the aircraft and pulling back on the stick until the desired rate of turn is achieved. A fighter pilot in a FBW aircraft has limited authority to do so, in that depending on the airframe and ordinance, a maximim of 5Gs in one plane might be all that is achieved, where 9Gs might be delivered in a different aircraft or loadout. In both scenarios, the motion on the stick might be identical, as the flight computer determines what the control surfaces will do. There's a decouple button on the stick, though, since overstressing the airframe in an emergency might be the only way to avoid turning into a lawndart, for example.

 

No fighter pilot is going to make a hard turn in combat by using the control surfaces with the least authority, that being the rudder. Sure, if I have the guy in my sights, minor corrections are perfect for applying a touch of rudder, or yaw, rather than playing with the other two axis, but in every sim I've played since, like, the dawn of high-fidelity sims, if you're in a dogfight, you're likely in a turning fight where you'll be doing a lot a Gs.

 

How does any of that reflect on SC? Well, if yaw thrusters have as much control authority as the pitch thrusters, not a bit. But we've already heard that some IFCS setups will actually automatically roll your craft in the direction of a turn and apply pitch, even if you've just applied yaw. Similar to what I've seen in a video for War Thunder's mouse controls. Why? because the ship has better thrusters for putch and the pilot sustains positive Gs better than lateral Gs.

 

If you look at air combat maneuvers, almost none of them involve "banking and yanking". Why? Because it burns far, far too much energy. It's usually the fastest way to effect a quick change of direction, but it's also the fastest way to destroy a significant amount of energy for very little trade-off. Fighter pilots avoid circling knifefights as much as possible.

 

As I mentioned, it's also a very good way to stall the plane. Banking and yanking has it's advantages when you really need to do a sharp 180 or similar (like a canyon turn), but other maneuvers are better for energy retention or give you a better trade-off. 

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