Destroyer, Javelin-class

[xOperator]

Well, sure it will be expensive.

Just look at CryAstro station right now. Look at how much it costs to re-fuel, re-pair, and re-arm a Connie or Starfarer

 

Now imagine, a capital ship. Not sure if capitals can dock there, so you will probably need a Starfarer to refuel, Crucible (or something) to repair it, and re-arm it.

[faquarl25]

5 hours ago, wfja said:

Hehehe... And when you lose one...

I wonder how they'll be treated as assets. Will they just be stockpiled and rarely used, only to show up in escalated fleet battles? Or will they be feasibly used in more regular missions, like heavy patrol or escort?

Or will that in turn never happen, as it paints a giant target?

I guess I'd like to know how prohibitvely expensive they will be to operate as an org and as an individual, and what the turn around will be to get a new chassis/hardware after it dies.

I feel like the capital ships will be used to take out other capital ships and maybe to capture stations if that is a function in game. Personally, I would love a feature like whoever controls a certain room at a time once a month, you can rent the station. This leads stations to be flashpoint, especially for org battles. (there really is not another way that I can think of to have an org battle other than piracy. (pirates try to take an idris with their capital ship and then a pileup of reinforcements arrives on each side. It also gives an opportunity for both FPS and ships combat.

 

(Anyone who takes their cap ship out for patrol will quickly lose their cap ship to swarms of small ships)

[Boildown]

7 hours ago, Chimaera said:

CIG has said many times that running an Idris or a Javelin with be EXPENSIVE in the fuel costs, armaments costs, and crew costs (assuming you're hiring both NPC and Human crew). So expensive that they don't have mission ideas in place that would justify trying to use one for missions.

Do you have a source for this?  One or more of the times they said it, don't need all of them.  It could be useful to have a ready link with proof.

I think armament is the biggest concern, followed by crew, but I'm not worried about fuel.  If you have a Javelin, you're in an org or fleet, and one of the ships in your org or fleet will be a Starfarer whose job it is to obtain fuel from gas giants and provide it to the org's ships.  Armament could be offset by equipping energy weapons and using your railguns and torpedoes judiciously.

For crew, I doubt it would be possible to even have an all PC crew.  It will (the following is speculation) probably be mandatory to have a certain amount of NPCs to do the grunt tasks on larger ships, and they'll need pay and death insurance.  That will probably the biggest fixed cost to the capital ships, a fixed cost that smaller ships will lack altogether.  The upside is that minor repairs will probably fix themselves over time as a benefit of having that crew (but not always repaired to 100%).

[Chimaera]

On 12/1/2016 at 7:46 AM, LloydM said:

Yeah it's a tricky situation. I don't ever intend for it to be flown without my org-mates but it's probably gonna take me a while to mine/haul/fuel/salvage my way to a fully functional Jav. 

I'll just point you toward the original post introducing the Javelin, specifically the "about the ship" section. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14335-Introducing-The-Javelin-Destroyer

If you want more than that, you can go check out different dev posts, commentary by CR on 10 for the Chairman, or wherever else they've discussed this. It's common knowledge, so you should be able to find it fairly easily.

[faquarl25]

7 minutes ago, Chimaera said:

I'll just point you toward the original post introducing the Javelin, specifically the "about the ship" section. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14335-Introducing-The-Javelin-Destroyer

If you want more than that, you can go check out different dev posts, commentary by CR on 10 for the Chairman, or wherever else they've discussed this. It's common knowledge, so you should be able to find it fairly easily.

Thanks for the link! I read though and, though I am disappointed that it has been nerved, I love the fact that all of its heavy guns are on its underside. What a great way to change it up and remind us that we are in space, not sailing huge water borne battleships. I also appreciate that it can hold both an argo and a redeemer. More functionality!

 

Also the escape pods! 16 × 5-man 3m x 3m x 4m (Total – 80 ) Does this mean that it will hold 80 people! Or does this just mean that there will be plenty of space for everyone?

 

51 minutes ago, Boildown said:

Do you have a source for this?  One or more of the times they said it, don't need all of them.  It could be useful to have a ready link with proof.

I think armament is the biggest concern, followed by crew, but I'm not worried about fuel.  If you have a Javelin, you're in an org or fleet, and one of the ships in your org or fleet will be a Starfarer whose job it is to obtain fuel from gas giants and provide it to the org's ships.  Armament could be offset by equipping energy weapons and using your railguns and torpedoes judiciously.

For crew, I doubt it would be possible to even have an all PC crew.  It will (the following is speculation) probably be mandatory to have a certain amount of NPCs to do the grunt tasks on larger ships, and they'll need pay and death insurance.  That will probably the biggest fixed cost to the capital ships, a fixed cost that smaller ships will lack altogether.  The upside is that minor repairs will probably fix themselves over time as a benefit of having that crew (but not always repaired to 100%).

I would agree. Ammo is and should stay expensive to encourage people to use the less powerful energy weapons. However, I do like that they have balanced it in this way where a properly funded and stocked javelin, with copious amounts of hard ammo, should do much better than those that are trying to save money with energy weapons.

 

Finally, I have some questions about ship roles in the UEE navy. The Javelin is the smallest ship of the line. In addition, it carries plenty of ATA turrets and, with the forward placement of engines, should be decently maneuverable. It seems like the perfect screen ship to hold off fighters and wreck anything large (like the huge Vanduul bombers) with its railgun. However, what role does this leave the Idris in? Its centerline railgun is nor maneuverable enough to engage bombers and it does not have enough turrets to do anything more than keep fighters off of itself, let alone other ships. In addition, the polaris is filling the role of a light patrol ship. Other than as system defense against pirates, where does the Idris viability lie versus the javelin the UEE navy.

[Chimaera]

3 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

Thanks for the link! I read though and, though I am disappointed that it has been nerved, I love the fact that all of its heavy guns are on its underside.

That's the original announcement, so I'm unsure where the "nerf" happened? 

 

4 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

However, what role does this leave the Idris in? Its centerline railgun is nor maneuverable enough to engage bombers and it does not have enough turrets to do anything more than keep fighters off of itself, let alone other ships.

The railgun's meant to crack Capital Ships, not fighters or bombers. It also has a lot of screening weaponry, and it can carry more fighters than the Javelin's small hangar/pads (not sure which it is anymore) can do. It's meant to be a small force projector or force multiplier. We'll get a really good idea when SQ42 is out as to what its role and limitations will end up being. 

[faquarl25]

1 hour ago, Chimaera said:

That's the original announcement, so I'm unsure where the "nerf" happened? 

 

The railgun's meant to crack Capital Ships, not fighters or bombers. It also has a lot of screening weaponry, and it can carry more fighters than the Javelin's small hangar/pads (not sure which it is anymore) can do. It's meant to be a small force projector or force multiplier. We'll get a really good idea when SQ42 is out as to what its role and limitations will end up being. 

I was reading earlier in the thread that, currently, it has lost a few turrets from the original announcement.

 

Secondly, I am disappointed in what they are doing to the interior. What happened to all the tiny hallways and cramped quarters? I don't want this to turn into another FPS map like the starfarer. I just loved the cramped feeling as it felt like a submarine where space is at a premium, not the 12 story cruise ships that the idris now feels like with its giant corridors and spacious interior.

[Juntau]

1 hour ago, faquarl25 said:

 

Secondly, I am disappointed in what they are doing to the interior. What happened to all the tiny hallways and cramped quarters? I don't want this to turn into another FPS map like the starfarer. I just loved the cramped feeling as it felt like a submarine where space is at a premium, not the 12 story cruise ships that the idris now feels like with its giant corridors and spacious interior.

True, but if you follow other space themed lore like  Star Wars or Star Trek I think most of those large ships were set up in basically the same way that Star Citizen is doing as far as interior layouts are concerned . 

[faquarl25]

3 minutes ago, Juntau said:

True, but if you follow other space themed lore like  Star Wars or Star Trek I think most of those large ships were set up in basically the same way that Star Citizen is doing as far as interior layouts are concerned . 

I understand that that is how those craft were designed. However, Star Wars is more space opera than sci-fi and Star Trek ships are exploration ships designed for extremely long duration voyages. Neither of them embody the military craft. I was really looking forward to scurrying down the passageway, lights exploding overhead due to incoming shots while trying to fix some vital component. I just hope that they aren't making all hallways huge for tracking purposes. That would be a dumb reason to lose that feel.

[Plagueis]

2 hours ago, faquarl25 said:

I understand that that is how those craft were designed. However, Star Wars is more space opera than sci-fi and Star Trek ships are exploration ships designed for extremely long duration voyages. Neither of them embody the military craft. I was really looking forward to scurrying down the passageway, lights exploding overhead due to incoming shots while trying to fix some vital component. I just hope that they aren't making all hallways huge for tracking purposes. That would be a dumb reason to lose that feel.

Space Opera? 

[Boildown]

The Javelin mounts railguns?

 

16 hours ago, Chimaera said:

I'll just point you toward the original post introducing the Javelin, specifically the "about the ship" section. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14335-Introducing-The-Javelin-Destroyer

If you want more than that, you can go check out different dev posts, commentary by CR on 10 for the Chairman, or wherever else they've discussed this. It's common knowledge, so you should be able to find it fairly easily.

 

That accounts for the Javelin, but you lumped the Idris in that too.  I think the Idris will come stocked with weapons though, it won't be stripped or need refitting.

 

14 hours ago, faquarl25 said:

Secondly, I am disappointed in what they are doing to the interior. What happened to all the tiny hallways and cramped quarters? I don't want this to turn into another FPS map like the starfarer. I just loved the cramped feeling as it felt like a submarine where space is at a premium, not the 12 story cruise ships that the idris now feels like with its giant corridors and spacious interior.

 

I agree.  The Millennium Falcon felt cramped (on screen), as do all of the Klingon ships in Star Trek, as they were built for combat use, not exploration.  The military ships in Star Citizen should feel cramped, as space is dangerous enough as it is.  Amplified when you have people shooting at you, trying to make your atmosphere leak out.  The less atmosphere volume you have to maintain, and the easier it is to shut off sections opened to the vacuum of space, the longer you survive.  Therefore the submarine comparison is exactly what we should have on the military ships in Star Citizen.

[Chimaera]

22 minutes ago, Boildown said:

That accounts for the Javelin, but you lumped the Idris in that too.  I think the Idris will come stocked with weapons though, it won't be stripped or need refitting.

When referring to the Idris, I was referring to the Idris-P, which is the civilian version that doesn't have the military-grade weapons (namely the M's missiles) or shields/generator of the Idris-M, and is also without the anti-Cap Ship railgun. While the P won't be stripped, it won't be M- level either, so if a group is wanting to make the P a more military-grade ship, they'll have to do refits. Yes, it's more viable "out of the box" than the Javelin, but it still will need work to be at it's "potential".

[faquarl25]

42 minutes ago, Boildown said:

The Javelin mounts railguns?

 

 

That accounts for the Javelin, but you lumped the Idris in that too.  I think the Idris will come stocked with weapons though, it won't be stripped or need refitting.

 

 

I agree.  The Millennium Falcon felt cramped (on screen), as do all of the Klingon ships in Star Trek, as they were built for combat use, not exploration.  The military ships in Star Citizen should feel cramped, as space is dangerous enough as it is.  Amplified when you have people shooting at you, trying to make your atmosphere leak out.  The less atmosphere volume you have to maintain, and the easier it is to shut off sections opened to the vacuum of space, the longer you survive.  Therefore the submarine comparison is exactly what we should have on the military ships in Star Citizen.

The millennium falcon got that treatment even without it being military. Even as a cargo vessel space is at a premium to give more room to cargo. Unless you are the NCC-1701 on a five year mission to explore the stars, normally encountering races of far less technological aptitude, it doesn't make sense to put comfort over functionality and support.

[Chimaera]

33 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

The millennium falcon got that treatment even without it being military. Even as a cargo vessel space is at a premium to give more room to cargo. Unless you are the NCC-1701 on a five year mission to explore the stars, normally encountering races of far less technological aptitude, it doesn't make sense to put comfort over functionality and support.

I'll see your Millennium Falcon, and raise you the Tantive IV, or even one of the Star Destroyers. Both military ships with military roles, but with very large and open hallways. Even the shuttles used in Star Wars were roomy, as were the Runabouts in Star Trek.. Even the Millennium Falcon was roomier than it seemed, they just got the "cramped" feel by having the lighting be darker and the ship have very short passageways. You still could have a WOOKIE stand upright without needing to bend forward too far, and people walking at least 3 abreast. The problem with keeping things too tight and cramped is that you risk making it impossible for multiple people to walk in the same hallway, AND you run into the issues we see with the Retaliator. If you make a hall that can only comfortably fit one person, you end up with lots of people dying from inability to make it to escape pods. 

[faquarl25]

1 minute ago, Chimaera said:

I'll see your Millennium Falcon, and raise you the Tantive IV, or even one of the Star Destroyers. Both military ships with military roles, but with very large and open hallways. Even the shuttles used in Star Wars were roomy, as were the Runabouts in Star Trek.. Even the Millennium Falcon was roomier than it seemed, they just got the "cramped" feel by having the lighting be darker and the ship have very short passageways. You still could have a WOOKIE stand upright without needing to bend forward too far, and people walking at least 3 abreast. The problem with keeping things too tight and cramped is that you risk making it impossible for multiple people to walk in the same hallway, AND you run into the issues we see with the Retaliator. If you make a hall that can only comfortably fit one person, you end up with lots of people dying from inability to make it to escape pods. 

Isn't that why they have escape pods positioned all around the ship?

[CyberianK]

The lack of "crampedness" is really for the abstract graphics engines and animations.

 

You need to have solid 3d models that have to fit everywhere plus armor and equipment plus necessary animations. The human body is flexible, flesh and muscle is too the 3-d model isn't at all. It can't squeeze through tight openings and such the way a human body can.

If you were in the Navy or were in a submarine or ever saw a good movie about that you know how many complex movements peoples make when navigating through those spaces especially when they meet other peoples and such.

Having something like that in games is still ages in the future. We would probably need real "player mocap" in a VR environment for that or a truly dynamic artificial animation system without any fixed miocap approach at all. Plus a more realistic simulation of the human body.

[faquarl25]

10 minutes ago, CyberianK said:

The lack of "crampedness" is really for the abstract graphics engines and animations.

 

You need to have solid 3d models that have to fit everywhere plus armor and equipment plus necessary animations. The human body is flexible, flesh and muscle is too the 3-d model isn't at all. It can't squeeze through tight openings and such the way a human body can.

If you were in the Navy or were in a submarine or ever saw a good movie about that you know how many complex movements peoples make when navigating through those spaces especially when they meet other peoples and such.

Having something like that in games is still ages in the future. We would probably need real "player mocap" in a VR environment for that or a truly dynamic artificial animation system without any fixed miocap approach at all. Plus a more realistic simulation of the human body.

I completely understand. I just don't get why the hallways are circular. There is no reason for high ceilings or bulging always. From the little I have seen of the engineering bay, it seems to have that feel of a spaceship, not the white, empty, enterprise like hallways in the idris. They could have at least made all of the wall space contain exposed components for easy access. 

[Jergon Heckory]

On 2.12.2016 at 2:40 AM, faquarl25 said:

I was reading earlier in the thread that, currently, it has lost a few turrets from the original announcement.

Where did you read this? The official Javelin forums?

It has been a popular topic the weeks leading up to the last sale. Prior to the "Big guns"-video, a very vocal minority claimed the Javelin had lost a large number of its turrets. This was based on the Homestead-video, looking at the Javelin buried in the sand.

The original design had another turret mounted behind the engines.

Some people are still crying foul, but fact is, they would never complained if the turret had not been there in the first place.

 

Not sure if sad or funny.

Either way - the ship has not been nerfed, nor has it been buffed. It could not have been, as its not completed yet

Its designed to fit a certain role - and will do so once complete.

Weapons, shields, armor etc will be adjusted several times until every piece of the puzzle is where they should be.

 

[faquarl25]

1 minute ago, Jergon Heckory said:

Where did you read this? The official Javelin forums?

It has been a popular topic the weeks leading up to the last sale. Prior to the "Big guns"-video, a very vocal minority claimed the Javelin had lost a large number of its turrets. This was based on the Homestead-video, looking at the Javelin buried in the sand.

The original design had another turret mounted behind the engines.

Some people are still crying foul, but fact is, they would never complained if the turret had not been there in the first place.

 

Not sure if sad or funny.

Either way - the ship has not been nerfed, nor has it been buffed. It could not have been, as its not completed yet

Its designed to fit a certain role - and will do so once complete.

Weapons, shields, armor etc will be adjusted several times until every piece of the puzzle is where they should be.

 

No, I was reading on this forum (probably from the vocal minority that you are talking about) that the javelin had lost some turrets. Personally, I think it wastes a lot of hull space on the forward deck, but have nothing to substantiate my claims.

 

Like the Vanguard warden???

[Chimaera]

10 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

Like the Vanguard warden???

Warden is suffering from a number of issues, namely that they haven't got all the power systems working yet, none of the armor, and they are still trying to figure out the right balances for speed and such. The newest patches are changing the flight modeling a lot, so the Warden may suddenly become the uber-king.  

As for the Javelin, I agree with @Jergon Heckory in that you can't nerf something that isn't even in testing yet. People need to calm their asses down and just wait for the finished product before they pronounce doom.

[faquarl25]

26 minutes ago, Chimaera said:

Warden is suffering from a number of issues, namely that they haven't got all the power systems working yet, none of the armor, and they are still trying to figure out the right balances for speed and such. The newest patches are changing the flight modeling a lot, so the Warden may suddenly become the uber-king.  

As for the Javelin, I agree with @Jergon Heckory in that you can't nerf something that isn't even in testing yet. People need to calm their asses down and just wait for the finished product before they pronounce doom.

I think they thought the javelin was going to be exponentially more powerful than the Idris, and, when they realized it wasn't, they freaked out. I think it will be a great anti-fighter ship as well as a brawler, but not a "I win" ship that a single person can take out with NPCs and wreak everything.

[GRIZZ]

Wow! 

Everything from 27:08 until the Reclaimer should be all Javelin.  There are some Idris placeholder art on the computer monitors that are confusing people but I think its very safe to say its all Jav-hotness.

It will be my pleasure serving you on your beautiful ships.

 

[bOcy]

What about the vanguard in the hangar?

[Arcanus]

1 hour ago, bOcy said:

What about the vanguard in the hangar?

I'm about 95% sure that was a Vanguard Hoplite, and we were looking at the Javelin hangar. 

ALSO, based upon the brochure (which included a room layout that seems to match), and the different design aesthetic, I think that the air hockey table belongs in the Polaris, not the Javelin

[Morgenroete]

Can't wait to eva around that ship