Will joysticks give an advantage in SC?

[Prospero]

I want to buy a joystick, I just wish I knew more so I could make a more informed decision. 

[Chimaera]

I want to buy a joystick, I just wish I knew more so I could make a more informed decision. 

 

When choosing a joystick there are several things to consider:

1. Do you want to have a full hands-on (HOTAS) setup. I put this at number 1 because that's something generally overlooked by a player looking at their first joystick. The advantages and disadvantages of a HOTAS setup are debatable, but I tend to lean toward having one, and most players I know who started without one but moved on to having one have never wanted to go back. Two big disadvantages of HOTAS rigs are desk space and expense relative a non-HOTAS.

 

2. What other peripherals do you plan on having? If you plan to have an Occulus Rift setup (valid question, as some people get motion sick from it) then a HOTAS setup with easily reachable buttons makes a lot of sense, considering you won't be able to see your keyboard or G13 style gamepad. If no OR setup, do you plan on making use of multiple LCD displays that you can get as peripherals for your joystick?

 

3. Do you plan on using your keyboard often when not in space-flight? Some players really don't like trying to control FPS mode with a joystick, so they tend to want to not have their keyboard blocked, or to have an easily removable joystick so they can quickly grab their mouse and keyboard for a boarding action of sorts.

 

4. Would your current rig support it well? Normally I wouldn't say this, but I had a buddy recently get annoyed because he bought an X-52 and realized he didn't have USB ports available for it. Stupid I know, but hey...

 

5. How much twitch do you want? A post mentioned above stated that a specific joystick had a  "huge dead zone", meaning that they had to move the joystick a LOT in order to get a response. For some players this is a problem, for others it isn't. Personally if I am playing a gravity based game, I like a little dead space in the middle for helping maintain level flight, but in space-flight sims I almost feel like I'm half a second behind the move I want to do because I have to pull so hard on the stick (GIGGIDY haha). I would take a look at websites about individual joysticks and find one that has a very modifiable sensitivity area so you can find the fit that is good for you.

 

6. Following that line of thought, does it FIT you? The old X-45 had a button at the pinky level that was difficult for people with smaller hands to reach, while button spacing on some of the larger joysticks can be a bit annoying for smaller handed people. Conversely, the closer grouping of buttons on other joysticks can be annoying for people with larger hands. If possible I would go somewhere that had demo units up that you could actually touch and see if the size fit. You don't want to buy a X-52 only to find that the buttons are spaced in a way where you constantly accidentally hit button 2 when you mean to hit 3.

 

7. Is it "too busy"? Some joysticks (like some mice) come with 20+buttons and modes that can shift that to having 60+ different mapped commands to the buttons. Make sure you get a joystick that the buttons can be easily learned and intuitive to your personal playstyle.

 

8. Finally, no two joysticks are alike, even when made by the same manufacturer. I had a X-45 and loved it, but didn't care for the X-52. Unfortunately the X-45 needs serial ports for certain connections (wtf?) and tends to not respond as well as newer joysticks...that and it's almost a decade old (if not a decade old). The X-52 button grouping annoyed me, as did the throttle assembly. Pick a joystick that you think fits your feel the best, but don't expect a joystick made by one manufacturer to feel the same as another joystick made by the same manufacturer.

 

Cheers, and hope this helps!

 

PS. I personally would buy a Thrustmaster if I could find one that wasn't too expensive.

[Prospero]

I just wish I knew weather it would really help to own a joystick. IDK if its just as useful as a mouse why I would want one? Especially when they aren't that cheap.

[Chimaera]

Well, before worrying about spending a lot of money on something you don't know if you would need, do a lot of research and checking on joysticks between now and DFM release. Once DFM comes out, if you find that the major differences between controlling a "regular" flight sim plane and the SC craft make mouse control a lot less advantageous, well then you will have already researched which joystick to buy.

[C. lose]

I think it will. Joystick will give delicate control ability. Keyboard has only possibility with 0,90,180,270 degree control.(◀▲▼▶) But any degree is possible at joystick. This will make difference anyhow.

[Prospero]

It really depends on whether they do the Warthunder thing where pointing the mouse away from center causes you to turn, or whether you have to continually scroll. 

 

 

Other than that the keyboard is just better. Unless I'm unaware, only the keyboard has strafe options. 

[Yoristar]

Other than that the keyboard is just better. Unless I'm unaware, only the keyboard has strafe options. 

 

Exactly that is wrong. Like I said before my TM joystick has 5 analog axes. That means I can control up/down, left/right, throttle, roll, and strafing all from the joystick.

[Chimaera]

I honestly think, Prospero, that you will not be able to compare how SC handles to any other flight sim you have played because it has realistic physics and a control axis that is different than any other sim with a possibly exception being to Evochron or Sol Exodus. Expecting it to be anything like War Thunder is probably not the best idea, especially if you don't fly WT in Real Mode and don't use external views. I will stand by what I said before-wait til the DFM comes out and see how it handles for you using what you find comfortable, and if the KB+Mouse doesn't seem to handle the flight models well, the buy a stick that fits you.

[Blade Dance]

Im personally torn between getting a joystick/throttle or a simple Xbox style controller.

 

Money isn't an option but, the price difference is staggering, and i have been looking into the hand held controllers since seeing CIG demonstrate the Dog fighting module.

 

They both seemed to be viable platforms and in my opinion allow for more controll of your craft. If any of you want to see the differences between keyboard/mouse and joystick then try out world of warplanes its free to play and supports both setups.

 

Now Im not at all saying the SC will play like this but, the amount of control gained from using a joystick or handheld controller becomes apparent immediately.

[Prospero]

Chimaera I think you are right. My budget is $100. Given that what joystick do you think I may be purchasing 3 months from now?

[Gremlich]

If I may suggest something.....

 

For my game play when not playing a human/Battlearmor, I use a Logitech extreme 3D pro in my right hand and a Razer Nostromo n52 (formerly known as the Belkin n52 Nostromo) for the left. I use the d-pad as my throttle. 

 

Razer has other, similar products like the Orbweaver and the Tartarus. The MS strategic commander is another one, but they are hard to find.

[Chimaera]

If I may suggest something.....

For my game play when not playing a human/Battlearmor, I use a Logitech extreme 3D pro in my right hand and a Razer Nostromo n52 (formerly known as the Belkin n52 Nostromo) for the left. I use the d-pad as my throttle.

Razer has other, similar products like the Orbweaver and the Tartarus. The MS strategic commander is another one, but they are hard to find.

Logitech G13 works well, too, especially if the "ergonomics" of the razer aren't all that ergonomic.

@Prospero, that gives me an idea for yours. If you follow Gremlich's idea and get a decent joystick (The above-mentioned logitech is a good example) but couple that with a gamepad specifically designed for the left hand, it could be a good hybrid option. You could map the throttle action to the up/down of the control D-Pad or stick depending on which you chose, and map the horizontal thrusters to the left-right of the stick and still be able to map specific weapons/targeting protocols to the stick's thumb buttons, and map other commands to the keys on the gamepad. The added advantage of this is that you can simply hit a "switch mode" hotkey for when you are doing first person and then drop your hand off the stick and right down to your mouse for when you want to FPS.

An added thought about mouse disadvantage: I have noticed, when I play WT, that a lot of mouse flyers (now, they could be noob or crappy), whenever they try to pull a tight turn or a steep climb, end up having moments of "staggering" movement when they pull these maneuvers. When I asked a pilot I shot down, why he'd literally staggered in place which gave me a perfect high-deflection shot, he said he had to "Lift my *bleep*ing mouse off the *bleeping* mousepad, this happens to me all the time...". I have had similar convos with other mouse players. On the PLUS side of mouse players, at least for War Thunder, they tend to have a bit better accuracy than a lot of stick players due to the same reasons why mouse-KB players are better in most FPSs than controller players. However, how much this will be true for SC is debatable given the fact that a majority of the mouse guys I know rely on flying in Third Person and not cockpit mode, which isn't going to be a viable option for the PU SC. Joysticks don't have a pad to lift off of so there is no situation where you may lose your turn or climb because of "lifting" off the pad.

The added advantage of doing the game-pad+stick is that the gamepad is a major game-improver for many players because they can map so many commands to keys within a finger range that is easy to memorize, as opposed to worrying about needing to get eye references on a keyboard. Also, the addition of having a thumbstick to control specific throttle/thrust commands on the one hand, or AWSD on the other, is good.

[Maverick]

I got myself an Orbweaver about half a year ago and used the Belkin Nostromo before. I never play any FPS without the Orbweaver, incredibly useful piece of hardware and I can imagine how useful it could be in combination with a joystick. Will test this with my X52pro when I get a chance to.

[CyberianK]

I also have a Nostromo though I used it very little up to now. I am thinking of buying a Warthog stick without throttle plus the Nostromo as a possible option. I will be waiting for the DFM Alpha though.

 

And part of my decision will be based on if Dual Engine Throttle will be supported. Because there are a lot of ships out there that could use it:

 

350r, m50, Scythe, Gladiator, Cutlass, Freelancer, Caterpillar all have a Twin Engine setup.

Then there are Starfarer, Constellation, Retaliator which have 3,4,5 main Engines but even that could be controlled with a Dual Throttle.

 

But of course they could also make the flight model utilizing both engines fully just with Joystick movement through the FlyByWire. That is basically a design decision. But if you need to set different main engine volumes for extremer flight maneuvers I think it might be harder to do if you don't have a dual throttle.

[Prospero]

I do wish we knew more about the controls. I have wet dreams imagining pulling the engines in my cutlass into a crazy ivan to turn to face someone chasing me and blasting them to bits. 

 

But I don't know if that's even possible qq.

[CyberianK]

I do wish we knew more about the controls. I have wet dreams imagining pulling the engines in my cutlass into a crazy ivan to turn to face someone chasing me and blasting them to bits. 

 

But I don't know if that's even possible qq.

Yep agree, we can hope but we don't know

 

Anyway that's what I really like about the Cutlass that the two main thrusters are so far on the outside of the ship. If ships flight models relate to the real physics this should mean better turning rates and general maneuverability.

[Core]

Found this in my travels to weird input controls that seem interesting.

 

 

http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/what-is-a-3d-mouse.html

[Arkaotic]

@

 

I never even knew something like that existed, definitely on my list for immersion peripherals. I can even see it being functional.

[AdmiralBoom]

very interesting... I wonder how well that could translate into gaming, im sure someone has tried before

[flashbolts]

A lot of the engineers at work use these for 3D CAD drawings and they seem to like them.  

[Bzerker01]

Honestly it depends on how you play.  I don't think that the game will support a Warthunder type mouse and keyboard crutch thus for finer movements and more precision a joystick would be perfect, especially for dogfighting.  However I think even a control pad (360 controller) would work fine as well, especially for those quick moments of transition between flying and FPS combat.  Honestly, if done right, the mouse and keyboard would be more difficult to master precise movements like a HOTAS or just a joystick.  The difference in price, between a cheap one and an expensive one, just gives you more durability and more button maping.

[Gremlich]

joysticks for the left hand:

 

worst case, quasi-ambi: Thrustmaster  2960706

 

GenX 500L

 

Logitech Attack 3

 

Saitek AV8R

 

Saitek Pro Pilot Yoke with throttle

[thekalman]

This is a post made on the SC reddit talking about Joysticks vs. KBM from the perspective of control-order authority. Worth a read. 

 

 

I've been playing flightsims and space sims for a long time (I started with Falcon -the original, by Spectrum Holobyte- Battle of Britain 1940 and Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe) and while I will admit this might be a bit of familiar bias, I've never found a mouse to be superior to a stick, ever. 

 

In a lot of questions coming from KBM players they focus heavily on the precision gunnery aspect and tend to ignore the other aspects of maneuvering. Precision lining-up-the-shot gunnery is likely going to amount to no more than 20% of your maneuvering, probably a lot less. The vast majority is going to be combat maneuvering. A joystick -especially in 6DOF- is going to blow a mouse away in terms of complex maneuvering. Aside from the fact that you can manipulate 3 axis at once (as oppose to two for a mouse), your range of motion with a mouse and the control you have over that range is inherently more limited.

 

I'll explain that last point a bit. There's two ways to do mouse control in a space sim: The first is to directly tie the ship's motion to mouse movement (also called zero-order control). The ship only pitches or yaws when the mouse is in motion and the degree and speed of movement is directly proportional to the distance the mouse moves and how fast the mouse moves. This method has the advantage of very precise control... but it's pretty much useless for anything else. You'll hit the edge of your desk with the mouse before you'll turn the ship 45 degrees, forcing you to pick up the mouse and re-position it. This is the type of mouse control older space combat sims like the X-Wing Series and FreeSpace used.

 

The second type of control uses a lead indicator or cursor that is controlled by the mouse, and your ship moves in the direction of the lead indicator (this is a way to fake first-order control with a zero-order device). The further it is from your center crosshair, the faster the ship turns in that direction. IIRC this is the type of mouse control WC1 and 2 used, as well as Starshatter: The Gathering Storm.. maybe X3 but I can't remember. This allows you to pull off the same kind of wide-range maneuvers you can do with a joystick, but personally I've always felt it was the least accurate of the 3 methods overall. Unless you have a wide deadzone around your crosshair it's hard to stop the ship from turning, and it's harder to pull very fast snap maneuvers since you have to move the lead all the way to the edge of the screen first, and then all the way back to stop turning. This makes it much easier to overcompensate or under-compensate and have to correct.

 

Again, this is just my opinion, but method 1 above only has the advantage of precision aiming over a joystick, and method 2 has zero advantages -joysticks are designed for first order control, a mouse is not. If this was a game where we were all turret gunners all the time I'd say go for KBM control. But it's not.. your ability to pull complex and/or fast maneuvers manipulating multiple axis at once are going to be key to survival in a dogfight, and you just can't beat a joystick for that.

 

As for controllers... I don't use them, I'm a PC gamer through and through so I can't comment on them. I can see situations where having two analog sticks could be advantageous though.

 

I have a feeling a chunk of the misconceptions about the advantages of mouse control come from people heavily into FPS games, and/or their frame of reference for a space combat sim is the control style used in Freelancer. Both of those are well suited to a mouse, but neither is representative of a space combat sim. You can absolutely play a SCS game with a mouse -a good friend of mine was a demon in FreeSpace with one- but people who pull that off tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

Anyways, just my $0.02

Edited January 28, 2014 by thekalman

[WarWulf]

@

 

This is exactly what I was thinking.

Nobody is suggesting that the 'Stick should be made advantageous over the mouse but it has inherent abilities which should give it the advantage without some extreme coding on behalf of the studio.

There are games where the mouse DOES have the advantage (*cough* War Thunder *cough*) but this is artificial and an 'Arcade Mode'.

That being said, there will still be a learning curve for those of us (including me) new to the 'Stick. Don't expect to buy a stick, jump into the game and be an Ace Pilot. 

 

Be prepared to log your flight hours before you start wiping out the enemy to any real effect.

[Gremlich]

There's a new Saitek coming out this spring - the X-55 Rhino HOTAS.

 

$200 and you can preorder it now. Sorry, mongo no test stick, but it look cool. Dual throttle control!!