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Prospero

Will joysticks give an advantage in SC?

114 posts in this topic

So Star Citizen is a space sim that many people are buying joysticks for. I have to wonder though, do we really know that joysticks will be useful to enhance your play (besides thematically)? I just don't see CR designing his game to hurt mouse and keyboard users since they will likely make up the majority of his player base. 

 

Do we have solid information on this?

WarWulf likes this

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How would using a joystick hurt mouse and keyboard players?  There will most certainly be joystick, HOTAS, trackIR, and Oculus support. I can't see a modern self respecting flight/space sim without support for these devices.

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More like i want to know if buying the $100 joystick will be as good as the $500 one :/ and what one to buy because if CR said he wants all ways of playing to be balanced so i can see the joystick bring just as useful as a mouse and keyboard, i think alot of the whole sim part make people feel cool when using actually joysticks, also i think its better for you physical health i dont know how bad carpatunnel you'll get if you use a joystick

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I plan on getting a hotas myself, but I am geared that way from playing Space Sims in the past (Wing Commanders, Xwing/Tie Fighter, Freespace). I don't see one of the hardcore hotas with all the controls being as important as it would be in something like DCS or FlightSimulatorX, or Falcon4.0, but I could still see it being quite useful. If you plan on using an Oculus Rift, I see a decent hotas as a must unless you think you can find your keyboard with the mask over your eyes. I don't think you would have to spend the 500 on a thrustmaster, the x65 is probably discontinued (I had one on order, and it got pulled out from under me). Saitek makes the X52 pro for about 160usd (which also may be on the way out) and has a new x55 coming out in April for about 200 usd. CH products is another good choice, maybe not as pretty but from my research they are very solid and reliable. The CH products are not in a set, so you must purchase the stick (around 100usd), throttle (another 100usd), and rudder pedals (around 115usd) individually. None of the CH sticks have a twist axis, so you may need the pedals.

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Personally, I would wait. One thing we do know is that CIG are in talks to have a dedicated SC controller made. Also, certain joys might be cheaper by the time SC comes out.

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I don't know about a SC controller, but they mentioned on livestream awhile back that they were talking to joystick manufacturers like Saitek and Thrustmaster about a possible SC themed Joystick. Personally, I can't stand the thought of trying to play SC without a joystick for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that they not only have pitch and roll, but also a very awesome yaw/slide dynamic with the way the thrusters can spin you on your horizontal axis, and I can't see that being terribly easy to control with a keyboard and mouse. I will confess that I have NEVER played a flight sim with a Keyboard and mouse, so there are most likely button configs and such that would make it easier, but it probably wouldn't be as intuitive as just simply "twisting" the stick or using rudder pedals. Hopefully they can find a happy medium between it, all.

 

I would ask though, do you expect to be able to play effectively in third person view or are you fine with cockpit view? I ask only because a majority of the guys I know who KB+Mouse fly in sims tend to prefer to do so in TPV, and CR has already said on many occasions that TPV is not viable for playing because you will not have access to things like the HUD.

AdmiralBoom likes this

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Posted Image

 

 

Me, I had this at one point below.

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Personally, the advantage of using these items is certainly the extreme G-Maneuvers you should be able to pull with these.

 

The downside, configuration of all the buttons and functions, ekk.

 

 

 

 

In the end I think you'll be fine with this...

 

Posted Image

Gremlich and Sandje like this

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My thoughts on joystick control after becoming a recent user:

Using a joystick will take some time to familiarise yourself with it. It's a completely different control system from kb/m or controller so be prepared to log a few hours getting used to it before being truly effective.

Most joysticks are fairly mobile and require relatively large movements to be effective. This is largely due to the way they are created, as the act of merely grabbing the joystick places weight on the stick this could be translated as movement. To combat this sticks tend to have a 'dead zone' in the centre meaning that fine movement can be problematic. You will be able to out manoeuvre the other users but don't expect to be a sniper when it comes to training your fixed guns on them. The exception to this, as I'm informed (I've not actually tried), would be the X-65 with it's force sensing it allows you to better perform micro-adjustments much better than the traditional moveable stick. I need to confirm this though.

You don't need to spend a fortune on a joystick, but there may be advantages if you do.

There has been some declaration about controller manufacturers vying for the position of SC controller and wanting to work with CIG in order to produce something. As the control system is likely to be refined for a while I wouldn't expect any development to start until long after DFM, in fact if it's available in less than 18 months I'd seriously question the amount of development that was done for it.

In summary, if you want the full advantage of a joystick then you'll need to observe the 3 P's: Preparation Preparation Preparation, in this case might as well be Practice Practice Practice.

If I actually get my hands on an X-65 I'll confirm or deny the information I've been given about it.

Quite frankly with all the publicity SC is getting and the relative quietness of the flight control market I'd be EXTREMELY surprised it, regardless of whoever gets the contract to develop the 'official' stick, all companies will be producing controls optimised toward SC. Probably to suit (exploit) a range of budgets.

If you're serious about using a joystick use something cheap and cheerful to become used to the mechanic. I'm using an x-52 and it's a great training tool for me. Hell it's a nice joystick in my opinion. But I'll be upgrading when the newer options become available and I'm not talking about the X-55.

Chimaera likes this

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Agreed, give me a Thrustmaster over a Madcatz anyday

Give me money, and I'll get the TM, haha. Right now in Hong Kong, a TM full flight kit is over $1000 USD... X52+ Rudder pedals? $250 USD...

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[...] do we really know that joysticks will be useful to enhance your play (besides thematically)? [...]

 

Do we have solid information on this?

 

Yes, we have solid information on this (as solid as it gets this early in the development), and the answer to the initial question is no, all input devices are supposed to be equally effective. At least this is what CIG are aiming for. We'll see how it turns out.

Here's a recent quote from the man himself on this topic:

 

Peripherals / player input devices. I noticed a lot of people being concerned that the game is set up like Call of Duty and is just a WASD FPS keyboard / mouse shooter because they saw a few of the team members just using their mouse and keyboard during the demo. Star Citizen is set up to be input agnostic – it supports keyboard, mouse, gamepad, joystick and HOTAS (and pedals!) Most of these can operate at the same time – for instance you can use a HOTAS, mouse and keyboard all simultaneously. This past week in our 6-8 person internal people were flying with a selection of all the above – an X65 Pro HOTAS, an X52 HOTAS, MS gamepad, keyboard + mouse, Logitech Extreme 3D joystick. So don’t worry we’re not biased to any control scheme! If you want us to be, well I’m sorry, our goal is tune the game in such a way that no one input device is the winner – it should be about personal preference, which I think is completely in the spirit of PC gaming that we are trying to uphold.

[source]

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to play a space sim without a joystick though.

WarWulf and Chimaera like this

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I can get this one for free from a buddy of mine who still has it in the packing, got it on sale but never used it :/ i'm still debating on it might be a little cheap

 

Posted Image

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I'm almost sure that the BEST interface option will be totally dependent on the player himself. Right now I know I would do a lot better using a mouse and keyboard, but I'm "training" on the hotas because I want that level of immersion.

So no, joystick users will probably not have an unfair advantage over joypad or key+mouse players.

 

I can get this one for free from a buddy of mine who still has it in the packing, got it on sale but never used it :/ i'm still debating on it might be a little cheap

 

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If you you can get it free, it's worth it. I got one of those myself a couple of months ago.
But I would not recommend buying it. Even though it is solidly built and works alright most games, the Deadzone on this stick is simply staggering.
It makes games like freespace a nightmare to play. I've had better experiences with some other games but the overall performance was negative.
I suppose it could be my fault, as this is my first HOTAS and I haven't played any sims in many years, but really killing me.
But no, it's not really cheap. It doesn't have the amazing built of a Warthog or all the shininess of a Saitek, but it's a decent entry level hotas.
You can disconnect the two parts (stick and throttle) and separate them for more comfort and immersion. Unfortunately, the cable that connects them is only around 45cm long, so depending on your desk configuration it might be a bit uncomfortable. 
I got a small keyboard with no number pad so I could fit both "modules" by each of the keyboard, and it works alright.
So, if it's free, get it! 

CC-Corp and Chimaera like this

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I can get this one for free from a buddy of mine who still has it in the packing, got it on sale but never used it :/ i'm still debating on it might be a little cheap

 

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This is exactly the stick I use right now for space sims.

Best thing I ever got! The new hotas sticks are pretty and such and probably worth the price if you will be using a monitor, or for realism in flight sims, but there are too many buttons and such that are not on the controls, which I would have to look at in order to actually use them.

But this stick has all the buttons I have ever needed in a space sim right on the stick and throttle. It also has 5 analog axes which means I can roll or slide the ship without taking my hands off of it.

For me it is important to be able to control my space craft without having to take my hands off of the stick because I will definetely be using an Oculus Rift for this game, and trying to find buttons or keys with a head set over my eyes is not my idea of fun.  :)

 

BTW if you and your buddy don't want/need the stick send it to me, a second one is never bad to have. Even though the one I have has never had a problem, you never know.

AdmiralBoom likes this

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I went out and bought a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro today just to start to get the feel for flying with a stick. I haven't used a stick since my Microsoft Sidewinder II, that force feedback was pretty cool at the time. I will probably invest in something better late 2014.

WarWulf likes this

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have anyone notice that the joystick in the freelancer and constellation(dual stick) is different then the hornet(throttle + stick), is there a way to use dual stick?

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I love the idea of dual sticks, especially with the Connie and how her engines are independently vectorable. Imagine the crazy maneuverability you can do with her if you vector the engines properly as opposed to just relying on the thrusters. In a way, you would almost need to re-learn how to fly! I hope they include that feature on more spacecraft, though. It seems like it would be ridiculously OP compared to other spacecraft based on a more conventional design of main engine (non- or limited- vectorable) with thruster/attitude control jets. Other than (I think) the Cutlass and Connie, I don't know of other ships with engines capable of that. Anyone able to correct me on that?

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have anyone notice that the joystick in the freelancer and constellation(dual stick) is different then the hornet(throttle + stick), is there a way to use dual stick?

Yeah, I tought about buying a Yoke joystick to match my freelancer's, but they are just not meant to be used in action games. It's usually for proper "boring" sims like MFS.

 

 

I think the Thrustmaster has a Dial under the stick that loosens and tightens the slack, you could try that and see if it helps?

 

Yeah, I tried every possible combination of the dial and the ingame deadzone setting. It's just too large. 

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