Jump to content
Arcanus

RSI Orion

Recommended Posts

There will be a Pilot in the seat at all times. Both to shift location on demand and to rapidly back off and get clear if the mining burn goes sideways or ignites a gas pocket. Not see any scenario where the Pilot could miss incoming unless he/she was a planted ringer.

Would be amusing also if the Load Master was capable enough to use the Tractor Beams to flick rocks at anyone attempting an EVA. Or point the laser at them and KABOB them.

I had a scenario somewhere here that mentioned having a Fighter Crew. The main concern was if they would have time to EVA to their fighter if someone came along to mess with them. If time permits them to drop what doing and EVA , then having 4 or 5 of the 'miners' with fighters parked on the backside of a nearby rock (to avoid all the mining debris) would be ideal. Since they are essentially 'cold', the other guys may be in for one hell of a surprise when the crewmen tool up their fighters and demand to know the intentions of the incoming elements... - DRUM out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know CR said Orion was to only mine in space..... but that was 3-4 yrs ago. A lot has changed. Heck.... they even took down some of the pictures of the Orion from the ship page. My guess, it's going to get modified some how to allow for planet side mining. 

Consider that the Reclaimer can now land planetside!!  I think ever since their planet generator became sooooo detailed, the whole game in general has taken a different direction.  Maybe not different, but a tangent where space isn't the "focus," as much as it is the medium between which we travel. It exist and it will be prominent, but not as dominate as moon, planet exploration/missions game play.  

So back on topic.  I have a feeling the Orion will be able to land planetside and be used to mine there as well.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm.... Where would they put the landing gear? On top of that, fully laden it weighs 3.4 times as much as an Idris, and 9 times as much as the Reclaimer.

For my money I'd prefer to see it remain in space, if only because tender ships are supposed to have a point. Anyway we shall see what they have planned eventually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/30/2017 at 7:41 PM, Devil Khan said:

If they were that stupid, there is no need to sneak. Only 1 Manned Turret and the rest are unmanned.  They keep the enemy moving around while firing.  Plus it is easier to have Hull-Ds and whatever ships needed for support. However I think that the the high sectors, the mining will be very like eve minerals assignments. EG the higher the Sector the lower the valuable ores. However It may be different from that on the final change of ores really. 

From day one we were told  Orion's can't do planetside, can only mine in space.

Strange thought, but can't we use the tracter beams to grab ships attacking it or at least slow them down or screw up their steering :D. I'm sure somebody has probably had it before anyway.

The Orion crew would still need gunners in remote stations to operate the unmanned turrets. Same difference. If an Orion crew is too cheap and foolish to hire escort ships, I doubt they'll hire extra crew to man the turrets and keep an eye on the ship sensors while the rest of the crew mines asteroids.

Based on what CIG has said in the past about tractor beams, no, they can't be used in combat to arrest or even slow ships. CIG explained ship capturing mechanics would necessitate disabling ALL of ship's engines and thrusters before arresting it with a tractor beam and docking with the ship to deploy boarders. If any engines or thrusters were fired when the tractor beam was engaged, the stress would overload the tractor beam and render it inoperable. If a partially disabled ship can do that to a tractor beam, there's no way tractor beams could be used against fully functional combat ships.

Not unless CIG has completely re-thought the purpose and limits of tractor beams. Who knows? It's been at least 3 years since CIG made those statements -- I remember CR said it in an early 10 For The Chairman episode.

23 hours ago, Drum said:

Would be amusing also if the Load Master was capable enough to use the Tractor Beams to flick rocks at anyone attempting an EVA. Or point the laser at them and KABOB them.

I had a scenario somewhere here that mentioned having a Fighter Crew. The main concern was if they would have time to EVA to their fighter if someone came along to mess with them. If time permits them to drop what doing and EVA , then having 4 or 5 of the 'miners' with fighters parked on the backside of a nearby rock (to avoid all the mining debris) would be ideal. Since they are essentially 'cold', the other guys may be in for one hell of a surprise when the crewmen tool up their fighters and demand to know the intentions of the incoming elements... - DRUM out

Interesting idea, but I'd be surprised if the Orion's tractor beams had the precision and dexterity to fling asteroids at Pirate ships or EVA boarders with any degree of accuracy for it to be a viable defensive tactic. Skilled Arena Commander players are able to dance their fighters around asteroids in flight and decoupled mode, so they could easily evade asteroids hurled at them, or shoot them and blow them to pieces.

Having the Orion crew bring along starfighters and park them nearby is an idea I hadn't heard before, but doesn't seem very practical. The Orion mining ship is a mobile ship; I doubt it's going to stay in the same location for more than a few minutes. When it finds a juicy asteroid, it'll devour it in a few minutes, then move on. The Orion could travel kilometres from where the fighters were parked, and it's impractical for the crew to stop mining, EVA to their fighters, park them closer, EVA back to the Orion, rinse and repeat.

Even if the parked fighters were within a 1000 metres of the Orion, the Pirates would see them EVA-ing from the mining ship, because there'd be multiple Pirate ships and they'd have the mining ship surrounded.

In regards to the scenario that I described earlier, the Pirate boarding party would've already infiltrated the Orion. If the mining crew left the mining ship to man their fighters, it would be even easier for the Pirates to defeat the skeleton crew left defending the Orion. The Pirates would commandeer the Orion and fly it away. The only recourse for the miners in their starfighters would be to attack their own mining ship to try to stop it from escaping. I doubt fighters alone could disable the Orion or the miners could retake the ship from the Pirates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah having additional combat ships parked and EVA probably takes too long. That said though it hugely depends on how durable larger size ships are in the end. If it takes 5 minutes on average to bring down shield and defenses of an Orion than there might be enough time. What could help if there is limited remote autopilot capabilities like if the EVAers could have their ship come to them or power up shields.

If all that is not possible then the only way would probably be if the escorts are directly docked to the Orion but they already implied that you probably can't fly around much with docked ships. But it could be enough for limited hovering around mining operations. But I wouldn't bet on it. Best might be a mix of ships who can assist in the mining but still do some fighting maybe an Orion accompanied by Constellations who can do some hauling or maybe even put on additional tractor beams but are otherwise equipped for fighting and protect the Orion in case of an ambush.

That said it all depends on how encounters will be finally chosen by the server. If you regularly face big groups of AI pirates and players then probably nothing can substitute for a full combat escort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, the Orion will not land on planet and mine. They have said it specifically as they were released the prospector. One is tactical and the other is strategic(nuclear bomb). They were saying that with the full load they can't land planetside, IE full of (empty or full) containers.    

Also The Orion is slow and if it lands it can't even jump for several minutes. Even after having taking off it will take a while to reach a safe height to jump. 

The Orion is designed to feed on asteroids by staying in one spot and using the tractor beams to pull them closer (IE right in its mouth). It is a LARGE ship bigger than the Reclaimer tbh. 5.4 Mil null (Orion) versus 600k (reclaimer) by stats. However, it's still concept stats and probably will change. Except This is miner by pulling them into it's mouth and crushing them up and spitting out the waste. The Orion and the prospector use different forms of mining. These shouldn't make  that much of a net profit with common ores considering the size  and amount of ore it can hold. Note the it is external and can be changed against a Hull-D without having to leave the area each time. 

You can use with only one person (NPCs included).

As CIG have done in the past, there are nothing set in stone until we see it, and then it's not 100% solid unfortunately.

Personally, I know I have to wait for over a year at least to see the Orion in game <_<. I really can't wait to get the Orion in my hand, it really does look and feel like a heavy duty miner. Of course there are certain questions we have to add like the tractor beam arm and it's location right in front of the S6 turret.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was watching the conversation about the Orion. Doesn't seem like anyone remembers that the Orion processes the ore. So this would make it much more valuable to capture as it will be holding refined metals. Also the mechanic for that still needs to be developed over just a Prospector with raw ore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you suppose would be the minimum skeleton crew to successfully mine.  I'm talking carelessly with no armed support in high sec space and at high risk of exploding volatile gas pockets.  In Artemis I could run a 4-man ship with 2 people hotswapping seats and ignoring comms, I only suppose you could poorly do the same in SC.

Quote

aimer tbh. 5.4 Mil null (Orion) versus 600k (reclaimer) by stats.

The Orion is 8 times the mass of a Reclaimer?!?!  How did I never notice this.  Where does it hide all the weight?  It's barely larger in silhouette than the Reclaimer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's full of cargo, so instead of being a largely empty shell like most ships, the saddle bags are solids and they're large.

@Trak, they've somewhat suggested that in the future variants released won't have the refinery as standard. Less mass perhaps or whatever the reason, hopefully less cost for those looking to break in to mining.

 

As for staff in a high sec area, probably four or five. Don't need to man turrets necessarily, but pilot, laser operator, processor, drone and sled operator would need to be running I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GRIZZ said:

What do you suppose would be the minimum skeleton crew to successfully mine.  I'm talking carelessly with no armed support in high sec space and at high risk of exploding volatile gas pockets.  In Artemis I could run a 4-man ship with 2 people hotswapping seats and ignoring comms, I only suppose you could poorly do the same in SC.

The Orion is 8 times the mass of a Reclaimer?!?!  How did I never notice this.  Where does it hide all the weight?  It's barely larger in silhouette than the Reclaimer.

There are 5 distinct crew stations aboard an Orion mining ship:

  • Pilot
  • Scan Operator
  • Beam Operator
  • Cargo Operator
  • Refinery Operator

I'd hazard to guess that Refinery Operator isn't an essential role because the Orion doesn't have to refine the extracted ore; they could simply dump the raw ore into the storage containers. Also, some Orions might not be equipped with a refinery, so they obviously wouldn't need a refinery operator.

The other 4 crew stations seem essential for mining, so the Orion will require a skeleton crew of 4.

Of course, additional crew would be better. It would be a good idea to have 2 engineers/mechanics on hand to repair anything that breaks, because space mining will take a toll on the ship and its equipment. Odds are that the Orion is going to get hit by wayward asteroids and they might penetrate the shields and inflict damage. It would smart to have a Ship Sensor Operator keeping an eye out for hostile ships and NPCs. Dedicated gunners wouldn't be necessary if the Orion had a SSO because if/when the mining ship came under attack the mining crew would scramble to the gun turret stations.

In summation, the Orion should have a crew of 7 to cover all bases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Reavern said:

I'd hazard to guess that Refinery Operator isn't an essential role because the Orion doesn't have to refine the extracted ore; they could simply dump the raw ore into the storage containers.

Think raw ore could be stored until someone was freed up, then they can head into the back to the refinery console and refine the ore and re-store it to make room for more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think there might be a reason to do it that way? Perhaps it takes additional time to pull it out of the saddlebags, but you can mine much faster than topic can refine? So do you mine more slowly and let refining set the pace or do you mine as quick as you can with the understanding you're filling up with scrap which you can refine in peace somewhere else?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, you could do it solo, but that would really ineffective which would drastically lower any chance of maximum profit. Which is your main goal.

The Orion has the same "saddle bags" as the Hull series which can be transferred while in space. I don't think it can land while the Orion has external cargo IE saddle bags. However, neither can the Hull C-E series land on planetside with a full cargo load.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Devil Khan said:

Look, you could do it solo, but that would really ineffective which would drastically lower any chance of maximum profit. Which is your main goal.

The Orion has the same "saddle bags" as the Hull series which can be transferred while in space. I don't think it can land while the Orion has external cargo IE saddle bags. However, neither can the Hull C-E series land on planetside with a full cargo load.

I'd never run a large ship solo except for a simple repositioning, it would likely cost you more operating it than you gained in harvested materials.  I just wanted to gauge the range of crew.  I completely agree the ship will be its most profitable with a full compliment of crew in unpatrolled space. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GeraldEvans said:

Think there might be a reason to do it that way? Perhaps it takes additional time to pull it out of the saddlebags, but you can mine much faster than topic can refine? So do you mine more slowly and let refining set the pace or do you mine as quick as you can with the understanding you're filling up with scrap which you can refine in peace somewhere else?

I would and have considered it in the past actually. Mainly in highly dangerous areas with little protection where there are rare ore's. Jump in and go balls to the wall filling up on raw ore, jump out to a safe location and take the time to process it down and dump the waste, then rinse and repeat until your 75-80% full. You would maybe only spend 1/3 of your time in danger that way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Effective crew is the max set, including turret gunner for coverage. Better to be safe and have an extra sitting around useless, instead of no-one at all. Btw it's 4 tractor beams, one main and 3 guiding in I think. Also, I'm not so sure that the stats are right. Also It is bigger than the Reclaimer, not just in you length-wise. 

Of course one think we were given, the Orion scans aren't precise, unlike the prospector who used precision. The Orion is like the Strategic nuclear launcher. I'd say  really the Orion will give you a bigger area of scans, while the prospector gives you precise, but in a very small area.

Gawd damit, I'd wish the Orion was (started) finished soon IE this year. -_- 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While on the crew size subject, didn't it use to have a crew of 7 ?

New CIG matrix overhaul now says it is crew of 6.

Can probably have lots more than that on board for training etc I suppose. If have to secure for mobility you could always use the beds for some and stations for others.

Logging would be the only issue with packing crews for training runs. - DRUM out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Devil Khan said:

Effective crew is the max set, including turret gunner for coverage. Better to be safe and have an extra sitting around useless, instead of no-one at all. Btw it's 4 tractor beams, one main and 3 guiding in I think. Also, I'm not so sure that the stats are right. Also It is bigger than the Reclaimer, not just in you length-wise. 

Of course one think we were given, the Orion scans aren't precise, unlike the prospector who used precision. The Orion is like the Strategic nuclear launcher. I'd say  really the Orion will give you a bigger area of scans, while the prospector gives you precise, but in a very small area.

Gawd damit, I'd wish the Orion was (started) finished soon IE this year. -_- 

Im pretty sure in some interview they actually went over basic mechanics where for scanning it would be a projectile that you have to guide into the asteroid like a missile which could be pretty cool. If done right you get a good scan of the entire rock, and the prospector being more of an actual scanner that only picks up things on the surface that it can reach. This was months if not years ago so I may be a little off but that's the impression I have had for some time now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Solo-ing an Orion would be incredibly dumb. If you want to solo mine, use a Prospector. That's what it's for.

Solo-ing an Orion might be technically possible, but it would be a disaster waiting to happen. The solo miner would have to hop from station to station to perform all the roles of an Orion. The stupidest and most obvious mistake would be leaving the pilot seat to do anything else, because there'd be no one flying the ship! That's a really bad idea in an asteroid field with asteroids of all sizes careening around and crashing into each other. Also, in the "Mining 101" article that CIG posted during the Orion Concept Sale, the scan operator and beam operator need to coordinate together, because asteroids can be unstable. The scan operator is supposed to monitor the scanners and warn the beam operator if the drilling laser is overheating the rock or nearing a pocket of volatile gas, etc. CIG said that mining will require skill and if players recklessly blast asteroids to pieces they can severely damage their mining ship.

In addition to solo mining in an Orion being reckless and stupid, the same is true for any large ship with valuable cargo aboard. A solo player won't stand a chance against a band of Pirates, especially if/when they board the ship. The Orion has a manned turret and two unmanned turrets. A solo player would probably be flying the Orion, rather than operating one of the turrets. Even if was possible to fly the Orion and operate one or both remote turrets from the pilot's seat, it wouldn't be effective against multiple Pirate ships.

I don't think solo mining in an Orion even in high-sec space would be a good idea. If any player sees an Orion and discovers it's being solo-ed -- ships can scan other ships for cargo and crew, as shown in the Freelancer commercial -- they'd be tempted to try to capture it. A normally-law-abiding player -- or more accurately, two players in a MC ship, like a Cutlass, could perform an innocent fly-by of an Orion while it was busy mining, discreetly scan it, and determine it's being solo-ed. They wouldn't declare their hostile intentions and open fire on the Orion, because that would inevitably alert the authorities and they'd respond. Instead, the two Cutlass players would play it cool and withdraw to a safe distance to not draw suspicion, park the ship, exit and EVA over to the Orion. They'd infiltrate the Orion without the solo miner knowing, which would be easy, because the miner would be distracted and frantically running around trying to operate all of the mining stations. The solo miner probably wouldn't know anything was wrong until he was looking down the barrel of a gun pointed at his head. Or he might not see it coming at all. The two players could easily take the Orion from the solo miner without alerting the high-sec system's authorities.

Solo-ing a ship like the Orion is just a bad idea!

Players just need to accept that MULTI-CREW ships need a crew, whether they're other players or NPCs. Stop trying to cheap out and solo so you don't have to share the money you earn. That's greedy and lame. And I guarantee it will backfire on you. Frankly, you'd deserve having your Orion stolen from you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that has been kicked around since it was first mentioned, and makes the whole pirate concept a bit sticky, deserves a little thought here. No idea if it is even a valid point, but here goes.

Your 2 players have successfully decommissioned the foolish attempt to solo a multi-crew ship. Up to then it maybe sounds viable. Now the sticky part come into play.

The culprits have no authority to open doors, unlock the guns, manage stations, much less fly the darn thing. Best they could try is to manually unload some cargo and pilfer supplies or ship components (if can open the component maintenance panels or shift cargo without authority).

Almost all of the current Pirate scenarios blow right past how hard (or if even possible) it will be to illegally fly a ship without permissions once these authorities are implemented (coming soon to a screen near you).

All CIG has mentioned is some teaser about how it would be possible to mangle a locked door in some manner to enter a ship when the owner had not given you door control. No clues dropped as to the next step, since blowing a hole in anything in the cockpit is not going to make flying it any easier. I can assume here that whatever it takes to wrest control from an unwilling ship authority will require hardware or some other item to bypass or confuse. I will assume further that this Needful Thing is not going to be sold at the local Ace Hardware or Dumpster Dan's.

I am willing to bet even CIG has not given this entire 'authority permission' thing enough thought beyond 'ayup, we need lockable doors'.

Anyone heard more on this somewhere? - DRUM out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Drum said:

Something that has been kicked around since it was first mentioned, and makes the whole pirate concept a bit sticky, deserves a little thought here. No idea if it is even a valid point, but here goes.

Your 2 players have successfully decommissioned the foolish attempt to solo a multi-crew ship. Up to then it maybe sounds viable. Now the sticky part come into play.

The culprits have no authority to open doors, unlock the guns, manage stations, much less fly the darn thing. Best they could try is to manually unload some cargo and pilfer supplies or ship components (if can open the component maintenance panels or shift cargo without authority).

Almost all of the current Pirate scenarios blow right past how hard (or if even possible) it will be to illegally fly a ship without permissions once these authorities are implemented (coming soon to a screen near you).

All CIG has mentioned is some teaser about how it would be possible to mangle a locked door in some manner to enter a ship when the owner had not given you door control. No clues dropped as to the next step, since blowing a hole in anything in the cockpit is not going to make flying it any easier. I can assume here that whatever it takes to wrest control from an unwilling ship authority will require hardware or some other item to bypass or confuse. I will assume further that this Needful Thing is not going to be sold at the local Ace Hardware or Dumpster Dan's.

I am willing to bet even CIG has not given this entire 'authority permission' thing enough thought beyond 'ayup, we need lockable doors'.

Anyone heard more on this somewhere? - DRUM out

I'm aware that CIG has recently mentioned lockable doors in Alpha 3.0. That's a welcome improvement and long overdue. However, I don't recall CIG mentioned security measures for the ship's systems, i.e. a login for the ship's computer.

To my knowledge, even the most modern aircraft and ships, which are completely computerized "fly-by-wire" systems do not use logins/passwords to restrict access to authorized users only. Security of aircraft/ship is provided by doors, locks, and the crew or guards. The controls aren't locked. The obvious reason for this is that you can't risk the pilot/captain forgetting the password to unlock the controls, or the pilot/captain could be incapacitated/dies and no one has the login/password to take over in an emergency. An aircraft/ship with a civilian at the controls in an emergency is still better than no one at all. That's why the controls aren't locked.

The same logic would apply to space ships. The pilot/captain needs to know how to turn on the ship's systems, but there isn't a physical key or login/password that restricts access to the rightful user. I imagine that's how it will work in Star Citizen.

The only exception to this, I expect, are for the ship's weapons. It would make sense that the ship's weapons are disabled and locked, and require codes to unlock. However, I doubt will CIG will do that. On the contrary, in SC, ship weapons are activated by default when you startup your ship -- that would be absolutely crazy IRL!

Returning to the point, I believe ship's doors will have locks in 3.0, but their computers won't.

For the sake of argument, if ships' systems did have "locks" that restricted user access, it wouldn't make it impossible for a Pirate to access the controls. CIG has said that keypads can be hacked or bypassed or destroyed. I expect that a login/password could be hacked or circumvented for the ship's computer, if the Pirate-player has the requisite skills and possibly equipment. I expect that hacking systems will be a common skill for players to learn and use in Star Citizen. It's like Lockpicking or Hacking in RPG games, like Skyrim or Mass Effect. Within the game world, those skills might be rare -- only thief-type companions or shady NPCs would have those skills -- but every player can develop those skills and use them to pick locks or hack open containers.

Therefore, login/password protected ship systems wouldn't be impregnable. It would just be an extra step -- a minor inconvenience -- to commandeer a ship, which most competent players will be able to do.

In addition to the short-term trick of hacking a ship's controls to fly it and get away, the long-term solution will be to alter the ownership of the ship. That will involve acquiring new, clean "Ship Registration" codes from black market dealers. After acquiring new ship registration codes, the stolen ship would be registered as a different ship, which would appear to be legitimated owned by the Pirate who stole the ship from its original owner. Law enforcement supposedly wouldn't be able to determine the ship was stolen.

That's how commandeering ships will supposedly work in Star Citizen, based on the limited information that CIG has provided thus far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the locks they also brought up the destruction of the doors, this would be interesting for a couple reasons to me. First they are talking about refining the ships so that you cant wear a suite while piloting, but how can you blow your way in and then not wear a suite if its unpressurized so I see that as changing, or adding a sort of flight suite that gives you enough insulation and breathing time to operate a little while if you depressurize while flying. But in any case what really gets my interest peaked is how are we going to be able to blow it open? Are they adding a breaching charge or c-4 to let us in, and then there is hacking the panels, I wonder if that is going to be a type of mini game or a literal hack you have to execute. Lots of questions from me on that one. I mean you could do a lot of things if you had breaching charges like rig the containers on an Orion before it left station and then when its out jump in and activate them to steal all their stuff while they freak about hundreds of micro detinations. Fun thought is all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Th3 Warm0ng3r said:

With the locks they also brought up the destruction of the doors, this would be interesting for a couple reasons to me. First they are talking about refining the ships so that you cant wear a suite while piloting, but how can you blow your way in and then not wear a suite if its unpressurized so I see that as changing, or adding a sort of flight suite that gives you enough insulation and breathing time to operate a little while if you depressurize while flying. But in any case what really gets my interest peaked is how are we going to be able to blow it open? Are they adding a breaching charge or c-4 to let us in...

I think that eventually, yes, there will be breaching charges in the game that can be used to blow open doors, external hatches, and even cargo doors. You could also use ship weapons to breach the hull or target the hatches of ships.

However, the primary method for hacking into ships will be the Personal Multitool, which is supposed to be introduced in Alpha 3.0. It's basically a handheld cutting/welding torch. It will enable players to slice open locks and doors, and make repairs to ships. If a Pirate used the Multitool to slice the lock on a ship's external hatch and decompress the interior, the Pirate should be able to weld the hatched closed and repressurize the interior so the ship can be operated without a space suit or helmet.

If the hatch was blown open using a breach charge, I expect it will be possible to patch the hole somehow. Sci-Fi sources have plenty of ideas for futuristic hull patches. My idea would be an inflatable device that fills the hatch portal, like pulling an inflatable raft inside the door of a plane. Then you'd spray gel or foam on the seams to secure it and plug any leaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×