Super Hornet-balancing issue?

[Meega]

This thread is why balancing will be an issue.

 

Compound that with the dogfight module highlighting combat effectiveness while completely discounting the trade/salvage/exploration aspects of the game and you have the potential for combat specialist ships being vastly UNDERPOWERED rather than the reverse.

 

Star Citizen isnt a dogfighting simulator, in fact such a large portion of the playerbase wanted to EXPLORE, that CIG went and made that a focus.

 

This just feels like gun envy.

[AdmiralBoom]

If you cant beat'em, run away. Thats why I got a 350R, guerilla warfare.

[Silveryn]

Same reason I have an M50. I want to choose my engagements on my terms, not run straight at a hornet.

[KeyserSoza]

This thread is why balancing will be an issue.

 

Compound that with the dogfight module highlighting combat effectiveness while completely discounting the trade/salvage/exploration aspects of the game and you have the potential for combat specialist ships being vastly UNDERPOWERED rather than the reverse.

 

Star Citizen isnt a dogfighting simulator, in fact such a large portion of the playerbase wanted to EXPLORE, that CIG went and made that a focus.

 

This just feels like gun envy.

No it was not gun envy.  The Hornet should own any other fighter one on one plain and simple.  It should also make two or three other fighters think twice before trying to engage it.  The problem is many Hornet owners think it can do it all.  They want it to mount a TR 9 size main thruster, be able to Hibernate and they agree the Idris ship to ship rail gun was a little much.  

 

The Topic is how will they balance the best fighter craft in the game.  Well for one its not going to have hibernation and I believe the second is it will not have a very long range.  The Hornet is a carrier based ship that is mean as hell, but it will have its limitations outside of dogfighting as it should.  We had a few Hornet owners discussing how that was so unfair to limit it in anyway.  That just was not right and complete unjustified to not let it roam the verse and destroy Idrisis at will.

 

You want a long range ok fighter get an Avenger or a 325A.  You want a short range flying anti ship turret that spews death get a Super Hornet.  

[Aethernaut]

I think Reavern might have had the right idea when referencing World of Tanks, If any of you have played WoT, you can compare the SH to a Jagtiger and the 325a to a Pershing. You're not going to beat a Jagtiger in a face to face fight, it's armour and Gun is just too powerful. The way to beat it is to out maneuver it and attack it from the sides and rear.

A lot of circumstances can add to the balance of the fight, ie surprise, obstacles and concurrent damage, but a good and experienced pilot should be able to lessen these with positioning and anticipation. Even a light tank can beat the highest tier tanks, it all depends on situational awareness and spotting the opportunity.

ie:- A Jagtiger caught out in an open field will have rings run around it, crippled by shooting it tracks and finished off by unloading in the rear (fnar fnar) but a Jagtiger with its back protected by walls with its barrel facing a one way street is a monster!

[KeyserSoza]

That is a good comparison. The hornet to far out and out of fuel because it's not a long range craft is in trouble. The hornet coming out of the hangar of the idris is going to kill some fools.

[Vladis]

I think Horner willl support superior due to the following reason:

(we know that Hornes is UEE main fighter).

 

Your Sq42 missions will be flown in Hornet (super hornet, likely, as it is milspec). I plan on finishing 42 before i advance to open galaxy and it will feel like gloves well worn to me after all the missions in it on military's payroll. Since CR has said times and times again that it will be player's skill (i.e. experience) that will ALWAYS be a deciding factor, i believe that SH will triumph in my own hands over the 325i.

 

It will be a different case for everyone. I think combat wise SH will always have an edge on MOST things (sure, less shield, sure not as nimble) combat, as it is meant to be.

 

And we cannot take "two pilots of equal skill in vacuum" (heh in SC this joke will seem to take a different meaning after all !) As pilot's skill will ALWAYS vary and depend on CURRENT surrounding, as well as overall experience. (Lets say 325i pilot is much better in open space battles, but the battle is taking place in dense asteroid field where SH pilot has more experience thus negating 325i, maneuverability somewhat. ****SPLAT**** QQqq 325i sucks,

 

 

Lets say a wing of three 325i's who worked together and created a team that works like well greased machine with each knowing his role (and specializing on UEE slaying, perhaps ?) get spawned VS 5 random S-H in an instance. I dont think individual skill of 2 S-H pilots, no matter how superior will make a difference if 3 others aer, well, windowlickers. they will be picked off 1 by 1, in short terms (probably alphabetically !).

 

 

oot [Tactics like these should be (are) practiced in WoT imho; CR always refers to WoT when speculating on dogfighting in general]

[Wu Jen]

The turret on the SH will make a world of difference, the only weak point on a hornet will be from the underside of the craft. Get on his '6 he can still fire. Come from above? He can still fire. Probably why having a human in the turret seat would work best would be that one of the humans in the craft would notice fire coming from another direction and be able to target the turret onto the new threat while a human with an npc turret op might get focused on attacking a single target and not notice fire coming at him from another direction. Having 2 Humans in the ship 'should' increase your situational awareness and enable you to react better.

[maltomix]

With RSI creating new ships on a yearly basis,  I'm expecting better dog fighters or upgrades every year.  

I have a feeling that RSI is holding back on other ship classes -- medium and heavy fighters.

Which make sense if you a Wing Commander / Privateer fan.  

 

[Pete-Mitchell]

Well, the Super Hornet is the pricier ship.  I expect it to have superiority over the 325....

 

The 325 sure is pretty though

[Exocet]

With RSI creating new ships on a yearly basis,  I'm expecting better dog fighters or upgrades every year.  

I have a feeling that RSI is holding back on other ship classes -- medium and heavy fighters.

Which make sense if you a Wing Commander / Privateer fan.  

 

Where did you hear they would be creating new fighters every year?

Don't forget the Hornet is, something like, 200 years old...seems weird that all of a sudden they'll start improving on it every year. Upgrades to it I can see (better systems and what not).

[Weyoun]

Wingmans hanger, they have mentioned it a few times. Ships makers will be like car makers. Each year their will be a new model line, example: 2423 aurora and 2424 aurora will be slightly different. Then, ever few years or so a hull update, or a completely new model might be introduced.

[Chimaera]

Wingmans hanger, they have mentioned it a few times. Ships makers will be like car makers. Each year their will be a new model line, example: 2423 aurora and 2424 aurora will be slightly different. Then, ever few years or so a hull update, or a completely new model might be introduced.

 

To an extent, I agree, but I think that'll happen for mostly the private sector focused ships like the Auroras, Connies, Freelancers, and the like, as opposed to the civilian modified military ships like the Hornets, Idris, and etc... Which makes sense if you think about it. Every year there are new car models that hit the market, but you don't see 10 different variants of Stryker or M1 Abrams tank, just variants made to address specific roles. Even the F15 and F16 fighters have only had 7-8 variants each and they're 40 year old designs.

 

Also-as a side note- I doubt the UEE Military would "allow" Anvil, Origin, RSI, or any other manufacturer to make a particular ship model that would out-class or be superior to the military. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for an Empire with a huge military to allow civilians to be able to own military grade weapons...Just like there are restrictions to what type, caliber, round, and etc... of guns a private citizen can own in the USA. You don't want civilian groups to be as well armed as the military, so I would like to think that PROBABLY the only way you'd be able to "beef up" you hardware to near military levels would be on the Black Market.

 

This brings me to a thing I think would be great for immersion purposes-while in UEE space, you see military presence everywhere doing operations against NPCs like you did in Freelancer. Further out maybe see Private Security and BHs doing the same thing. I played through Freelancer again recently and forgot about how cool a lot of stuff was. Ambient radio traffic kicked into my comms and I realized that, hey, X planet needed X type of cargo, bought some cheap, went to that planet, made a huge profit! Hope that's just a small part of what we'll experience once we're live.

 

I just hope they can figure out how to instance stuff well...

[Wu Jen]

I wonder how much better the F8A performs than the F7A. That would be very nice to land some F8A's, very very illegal.

[Maverick]

To an extent, I agree, but I think that'll happen for mostly the private sector focused ships like the Auroras, Connies, Freelancers, and the like, as opposed to the civilian modified military ships like the Hornets, Idris, and etc... Which makes sense if you think about it. Every year there are new car models that hit the market, but you don't see 10 different variants of Stryker or M1 Abrams tank, just variants made to address specific roles. Even the F15 and F16 fighters have only had 7-8 variants each and they're 40 year old designs.

 

The F-16 is one of the worst examples for a military fighter model with few variants you could pick =>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_variants

Same goes for the F-15 => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15#Variants

Same goes for the C-130 for instance. => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130#Variants

Better examples would be the F-14 or the Panavia Tornado.

 

The question is how they keep the system guards always superior to the people and their ships in the system. I think they have three options:

1: The AI pilots react inhumanly fast and hit very precisely.

2: If a problem occurs guards spawn in massive numbers.

3: The military has much deadlier weapons and better shields than civilians.

 

My guess is a combination between one and three. The military weapons mounted on those sector guards will always be, maybe just a little, better than the best weapons a player can have.

[Wu Jen]

The F-16 is one of the worst examples for a military fighter model with few variants you could pick =>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_variants

Same goes for the F-15 => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15#Variants

Same goes for the C-130 for instance. => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130#Variants

Better examples would be the F-14 or the Panavia Tornado.

 

The question is how they keep the system guards always superior to the people and their ships in the system. I think they have three options:

1: The AI pilots react inhumanly fast and hit very precisely.

2: If a problem occurs guards spawn in massive numbers.

3: The military has much deadlier weapons and better shields than civilians.

 

My guess is a combination between one and three. The military weapons mounted on those sector guards will always be, maybe just a little, better than the best weapons a player can have.

Better one would be F-4 Phantom II 1960-1996. As a kid I remember those on the base I lived on. I thought they were old then.....lol!

[Chimaera]

What I meant was that military fighters are not updated EVERY YEAR. When speaking on the variants of the fighters I was speaking of production variants irrespective to their particular "block". A F16 C/D is still referred to as a F16 C/D even though it may be a particular block-just like the Hornets are all called F7A-xxx. I was saying that I COULD see "updates" of models every "year" coming out, like the example listed above of the Aurora types, for the civilian sector, but not so much on the more "military" focused ones. next time I will be more clear so I don't warrant a wikipedia wall-I'm ex-AF, so I didn't need the "fact check".

[Maverick]

I fully understand you, but if you pick any military plane you will see that there are updates every year, I know about several updates of the Eurofighter in Austria for instance and these are the cheapest variants of the Eurofighter you'll find (meaning they are mostly the last ones to get those updates). Even these variants are updated, most updates are made in the software though, but not all.

So there is development/there are updates regarding military fighter jets and it isn't that unusual as it might appear to be at first.

[Chimaera]

I think we're also both talking about "updates" differently. Either way, though, it'll be interesting to see how things play out.

[Wu Jen]

I want my Canard Turret for my F7C-M!

[Exocet]

I want my Canard Turret for my F7C-M!

I couldn't agree more. I can't wait to get one on my super Hornet...(I believe I can anyway).

[Wu Jen]

I couldn't agree more. I can't wait to get one on my super Hornet...(I believe I can anyway).

You'll be able to fit one. You can put your Ball turret on the spot for the Cannard. Looks weird.

[Wu Jen]

With RSI creating new ships on a yearly basis,  I'm expecting better dog fighters or upgrades every year.  

I have a feeling that RSI is holding back on other ship classes -- medium and heavy fighters.

Which make sense if you a Wing Commander / Privateer fan.  

 

Gladius is now the Light Fighter, Hornet the Medium Fighter and the Lightning is the Heavy.

[Reavern]

Gladius is now the Light Fighter, Hornet the Medium Fighter and the Lightning is the Heavy. If the F7A Hornet is classified as a medium fighter, then IMO so would the F8A Lightning.

Based on the F8A Lightning's stats that were briefly posted on the RSI Ship Specs page, its stats are comparable to the Hornet in most respects. The two primary differences are the Lightning has a Size 5 max power plant, and 2 x TR4 engines. That's increased speed and agility -- whereas a true heavy fighter would be designed with greater firepower, armour, and shielding, which would make the ship larger and heavier.

Case in point, the Vanduul has the "Stinger" Heavy Fighter, which is larger than a Constellation.

I'd characterize the Lightning as a next-gen Space Superiority Fighter, or a "Space Dominance Fighter".

Also, CR has said that the F7A Hornets will eventually be sold off as military surplus as UEE military phases them out for the F8A Lightning, which implies they share the same class and role.

[VoA]

I want my Canard Turret for my F7C-M!

Ben seem to confirm that the current design of the Hornet eliminates the canard turret (though he sounded hesitant in his repose - on the latest Starcast Podcast)