The Lifetime Insurance (LTI) Superthread

[Goose]

Original: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/543216/#Comment_543216

 

Hi, folks. A lot of contention here, so I just wanted to step in and clarify a few things, since this post has generated a lot of traffic.

First of all, let's get one thing clear. Lifetime insurance is the same as regular hull insurance, with the added benefit that you don't have to re-up it when it expires, because it doesn't. Lifetime insurance gives you something that newer players won't have: insurance that you don't have to worry about renewing. It doesn't give you anything that they cannot get by purchasing normal policies. (Thanks to Roquen, Moses Baxter and others for pointing this out...)

As Chris has said before, particularly on the original FAQ, hull insurance does work in any situation, even dangerous areas. As also stated, this is the replacement value of the original hull and original parts (not overclocked parts) in the condition that they were last docked.

That being said, insurance policies (lifetime or otherwise) will not be instant "get out of jail free" cards. It takes time for ships to be replaced, particularly larger ones. So treating a ship like something special that you have worked hard for is a reasonable approach. Continued abuse of insurance coverage could very well result in longer replacement times, as the insurance company needs to verify that no abuse is taking place. (It takes much longer to get your check for running your car into a bridge than it does for getting hail damage on the same car...)

Sometimes things get put into our fictional pieces that get people concerned. In this case, the post talks about a planet that has no landing zones and no value for approaching, and the fiction was just amped up to emphasise the danger of a world that is really just set dressing in the midst of our universe. We always try to be careful with our words, even in fiction, but sometimes we just get a bit carried away.

We apologize if this made the situation unclear.

Thank you for your continued support and enthusiasm,

Rob

 

 

Just in case any of you still needed clarification on this.

[Shinken]

So anyone can visit Corin at least once

[Q2M]

In my research to purchase a new ship I have stumbled upon some information regarding ship insurance prices. This study is limited in scope as I only analyzed two ships, but I hope it gives a general idea of insurance costs.

 

 

Data from the Star Citizen Store

• Origin 325A Package (4 month insurance)             - $80
• Aegis Avenger Package (6 month insurance)         - $75
• Origin 325A Standalone (6 month insurance)         - $70
• Aegis Avenger Standalone (6 month insurance)     - $60

The only additional difference between the 325A and Avenger is the SelfLand vs Aeroview Hanger.

 

 

Analyzing the Data

• Origin 325A Standalone - Aegis Avenger Standalone = $10 = raw price difference between ships
• Origin 325A Package - Aegis Avenger Package = $5 = raw price difference - 2 month insurance
• 2 month insurance = $5  -->  1 month insurance = $2.50

 

Conclusion

• For a $60-$70 ship, 1 month of insurance is estimated to be around $2.50 or 2500 UEC.
• This insurance cost would scale to around 10,000 UEC per month for a Constellation priced ship (~$250).

 

Always open to questions and feedback! Hope this puts into perspective the cost vs benefit of LTI ships.

[Darius Marx]

So.. About 300credits a day to insure a stock connie.

 

 

idk whether to be happy or disappointed about this.

 

 

I know it's a speculation but these values may change with the installation of additional equipment in-game.

 

Does insurance cover general damage? or Just loss?

[Deadhiel]

I'm taking LTI as a nice bonus and not a waste at all.  Though I was lucky enough to get the bulk of my fleet when LTI was standard.

 

Overall, LTI will make life easier (cost wise) with running a large fleet, I'll still need to insure cargo and modules but the cost overall will be lower than a vanilla setup with no LTI, this will hopefully lead to an (admittedly minor) increase in profits.

 

It will also help with the ships I lend or put in the ORG's hangar (provided the insurance isn't voided because it was used in Vanduul space lols), if the ship goes boom, its back into the hangar with no loss to myself (as it will be stored with vanilla mods etc and covered under hull insurance).

 

[Q2M]

Does insurance cover general damage? or Just loss?

 

My speculation is that it would be similar to car insurance, in that there would be a deductible based on the type of damage received.

 

 

I'm taking LTI as a nice bonus and not a waste at all.  Though I was lucky enough to get the bulk of my fleet when LTI was standard.

 

Overall, LTI will make life easier (cost wise) with running a large fleet, I'll still need to insure cargo and modules but the cost overall will be lower than a vanilla setup with no LTI, this will hopefully lead to an (admittedly minor) increase in profits.

 

It will also help with the ships I lend or put in the ORG's hangar (provided the insurance isn't voided because it was used in Vanduul space lols), if the ship goes boom, its back into the hangar with no loss to myself (as it will be stored with vanilla mods etc and covered under hull insurance).

 

 

Agree with everything! My point is that the ridiculous premiums on the black market (sometimes more than a 100% markup!) are unwarranted as the benefit of LTI is significantly smaller.

[Deadhiel]

@Q2M Oh hells yeah!!! cannot believe some of the prices on offer for ships with LTI!   I would NEVER consider buying any of those ships (through reddit, for reddit prices) IMHO its definitely not worth the money you'd need to shell out.

 

I was annoyed when I saw so many people trying to cash in like that.  I fully understand people needing to sell off their ships (because of real life issues) but (for some) to use the whole process (purely) as a cash cow.. left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

I'm glad RSI changed the gifting on ships to minimise trading.

 

(Not looking to offend anyone hear.. just my 2c    )

[BravoTwoZero]

Please forgive me in advance, some may argue it is my work to criticize (academic) research on a daily basis , but your research is based on one unproven hypothesis and I don't agree with the conclusion as a consequence. And that is that the price difference between the 325a package with 4 months insurance and the Avenger with 6 months insurance, corrected for the price difference between the stand-alone versions of both ships, is entirely caused by the difference of two months in insurance.

 

This is an unproven hypothesis, for all we know ship prices are not determined by an equation. In fact, it is even more likely that this is the case, since we are still in the pledge phase and are merely pledging for support of the game, not a ship. If your hypothesis would theoretically hold, it would also imply that the difference in value between components of lets say the Constellation Andromeda and the Constellation Aquila is $50, which would lead to an estimation of lets say $x for the Ursa rover, $y for the research sensors and $z for the Merlin P-52? Ship prices are, as far as I see it, picked by staff and not necessarily a result of a formula, since it is primarily about the sense of worth rather than the actual worth.

 

Secondly, if all hypothesis would hold and the conclusion would hold as well, you imply that it costs about $2,50 per month. Arguably, LTI is quite worthwile if you consider people could play for years, thats $30 per year per ship for a lower end ship. For a Constellation this would apply $10 per month, or $120 per year. Who said anything about overvalueing LTI ships if all this holds? Sure, you shouldnt pay $100 extra for an Aurora LTI (hello scout package), but for a Hornet, or a Constellation and higher? Sure, $150 premium is nothing in these regions. So even if all hypothesis are correct and your conclusion about the price of insurance holds, I still see a different assessment of the worth of LTI.

 

Thirdly, the relationship $10 - 10,000 UEC is still speculative. That is what the price now is, not what it is going to be most likely as it was said ship prices as well as UEC prices were going to be raised when the game is released.

[daHawk]

 

 

• For a $60-$70 ship, 1 month of insurance is estimated to be around $2.50 or 2500 UEC.
• This insurance cost would scale to around 10,000 UEC per month for a Constellation priced ship (~$250).

 

Always open to questions and feedback! Hope this puts into perspective the cost vs benefit of LTI ships.

 

Im sorry to tell you this, but:

 

1 month for 2.50$ (300i/ Avenger) or 10$ (Constellation) is ridiculous.

 

Thats 30$/year for a 300i and 120$/year for a Constellation.

In 2 years you would pay more insurance than the price of a new ship.

 

If your numbers are true that makes LTI even more desirable for me.

 

 

If i compare this to real life insurance for a car:

I did a online comparison for car insurance, for a brand new 30.000$ car.

Full insurance (if i wreck it i get 100% in the first year, 90% in second) for that car would cost me about 1500$ per year.

I converted € / $ for easy comparison.

[CyberianK]

normal car insurance does not cover your car being wrecked with a rocket launcher fired by pirates multiple times a year

SC ship insurance does

 

but I agree to the extent that I also think it will be lower... not that low as RL car insurance though

[Darkpriest667]

As low as RL insurance? My premiums for my USED 2004 Mitsubishi Galant are 468 dollars per 12 months. That's literally 1/4 the price I paid for the car. That's minimum insurance which is mandated by state law in Texas. I imagine the premiums in SC are going to be much much lower.  The reason why is because the uproar in demand for LTI after it was closed off because of how many people thought it was going to be a big deal. I can't imagine basic hull insurance being more than 1% per year the cost of t he ship or else it will be a big deal. Think of it like this. if the price for hull insurance is even 10% of the hull for a year in 10 years it's paid for itself. We all know that real money is going to be sunk into this game. How much are you willing to insure a Connie for? 1 dollar a month, 5 dollars a month, 20 dollars a month?

 

 

I personally think LTI is a big deal, If I didn't I would have sold my FL LTI off long ago since it's selling on the Grey Market for twice what I paid for it.

[daHawk]

normal car insurance does not cover your car being wrecked with a rocket launcher fired by pirates multiple times a year

SC ship insurance does

 

good point

Real life insurance was not a good example.

 

But i still think the numbers cant be correct.

Insurance for one or two ships, 2,50$ or 10$ - not that bad.

 

But what happens when you own more ships ? And i know there are some people who own A LOT more ships than i do...

My Hangar:

RSI AURORA - LTI  1$ - 10$ - Reserved for Cross-Chassis Upgrade

RSI AURORA - LTI  1$ - 10$ - Reserved for Cross-Chassis Upgrade

RSI AURORA LN - LTI 1$

ORIGIN 315P EXPLORER - LTI 2,50$

AEGIS DYNAMICS AVENGER - LTI 2.50$

ORIGIN M50 INTERCEPTOR - LTI 3$

F7C-M SUPER HORNET - LTI 5$

RSI CONSTELLATION - LTI 10$

RETALIATOR HEAVY BOMBER - LTI 10$

All my ships have LTI, so i wont be affected by this until i buy something else, but im sure i will get more ships in the final game.

36 - 56$ per month... sorry this can not be true... this is more than 3 times the subscription cost for any other game.

Im not a skinflint, but seriously, thats too much.

I would not buy any ship without LTI if it costs that much to insure them...

[Wu Jen]

Don't forget that Insurance is based off of game time not RL time, but it will only tick off while you are logged in. Game time moves at x12 speed.i.e. 2 hours = 1 day of game time. If you play a lot and just hang out with friends, not flying, you will eat up insurance time. Also, all of your ships that are insured will all lose insurance time while you are logged in, whether you are using them or if they are sitting in your hangar collecting dust.

 

Just something else to consider.

[swiftwilly]

Larger ships may not cost that much. Insurance may not scale on a linear basis.

[Kobool]

Why LTI is not a waste: Because i want LTI

[Inkarnus]

I just say one quote of CR in this weeks 104C 5-6 years ))))

But tbh LTI is for most ppl neglectable except if you own a fleet of Ships! That is my standpoint and it still prevails.

[VoA]

Why LTI is not a waste: Because i want LTI

This is the only practical reason to have LTI. A need to have it out of "desire"... Like someone wanting a "red" car...

Unless you want to be a collector of pennies .... LTI has no practical purpose.

The study is actually high and we know this because this has been brought up many times before and CIG has mentioned that Insurance in packages or single ships has no relationship to insurance costs in game (PU). CIG has admitted many times.. That what they put in packages or stand alone ships (insurance) ..... The overall cost of the ship ..... The stats for the ship.... ARE ALL DETERMINED BY WHAT FEELS RIGHT.... and has no relationship to what it will end up being in the PU. All of this is subject to change as the game develops as Tony gets his chance to sink his teeth into the PU development (he has only been on board now a couple of months).

One indication of this being still completely arbitrary is CIG currently assigning 6 months insurance to many different ships (CIG does this because it feels right and has no relationship relative to a PU calculation). The only stat to date that we know will match what will be in the PU (since balancing is still being done) is cargo capacity (they now actually do a test where they stuff the ship with actual cargo units to figure this out)..... But they will adjust this number as well until the actual in-game ship model is available for this test. We know that ship length is usually wrong

-------------

Hull insurance logically should be the most expensive insurance .... but everyone with their trolling about LTI has put Ben on a crusade and we are now likely see an overreaction (we will probably see Hull insurance costing less than 1k UEC a month for most ships = CIG doesn't want people to loose their ships).

I do think that Hull Insurance will go up drastically with insurance fraud (and you can loose your LTI this way). The real credit sinks will be in Upgrade and Cargo insurance and Hull Insurance will be illogically low in relation (especially with Ben on a crusade now).

Hasn't everyone noticed the now frequent flood of LTI ships on the markets? Time for a LTI market crash with the new Concept Ships LTI

[Nip]

I don't think of LTI as any kind of significant cost savings, its more of a peace of mind thing, for me at least.  I know that 10 years down the road, even if I haven't been playing all those 10 years, that I will always be insured on my Phoenix, regardless of what happens.  I won't ever have to worry when I undock if I remembered to up my insurance after a long time away from the game etc. 

 

It's just a convenience really, like the original Lifetime subscription for LOTRO when it came out.  I don't have to unsub and resub every time i want to play again, i'll just always have it.  

 

My 0.02

[VoA]

I have a lifetime sub to LOTRO as well. Awesome game

[AdmiralBoom]

I like having LTI because if I have an AI piloting one of my ships and it gets blown away it's no biggie

[Israfel]

Well that ties into what they were telling us all along so it seems reasonable to me. I don't really see it as a "waste" though given it was given as a free perk, but yeah definitely not the huge game changer many people seem to make it out to be.

[Deadhiel]

I think we need to keep in mind the comments Ben and co said previously,  Hull insurance will not be over the top (cost wise), we will easily be able to maintain insurance on our ships by using credits earned ingame.  

 

For people with a small number of ships, it won't be hard to maintain.  

 

People with large numbers of ships (myself included) will incur less expense the more LTI ships we have.  

 

TBH, its a moot point, I fully expect to be bleeding credits for things like fuel, hangar fees & npc crew costs rather than insurance.

 

Having said all that.. I fully agree with the intent of Q2M's post, LTI isn't going to be the be all and end all requirement for ships.  It will be convenient and nothing more.  The inflated "reddit" prices on LTI ships are insane and over the course of our time playing SC, I'd doubt you will recoup the loss incurred by buying an inflated LTI ship now over the standard version without LTI and paying Hull insurance over the course of game play with ingame credits.

 

Supply and Demand being what they are, I can see why some ships (ie Vanduul) being more expensive because they are never to be repeated / released, but for just LTI.. nope.. not worth it.

[PaulC2K]

I dont think any analysis of insurance value/cost is going to be very meaningful for a long time, but that doesnt mean i dont find the discussion about it to be pointless, i think its interesting. What surprises me is that everyone is analysing the cost based on a flimsy assumption from comparisons between 2 ships, which isnt exactly the ideal basis to start from. But with little info, it doesnt bother me as a rough theory.

 

What does bother me is that people are now using that value, and asserting it as a saving to their pocket via LTI, as opposed to what it'll cost everyone who's paying for insurance.

I have 2 LTI ships (Starfarer from GM not realising it'll be sold later, and a  Gladius by fortune of backdated LTI), i also have around $500 in credit for other ships which most likely wont have LTI.

 

Here's my complex formula for how much insurance will cost me over a year:

Ship cost x insurance cost x $0

 

Yes, sod all, I plan on playing this game! I've done my spending cash in order to pledge and get some nice ships, but it wont cost me any amount of dollars to insure them, therefore it wont save me any dollars either, because i'll pay for the insurance simply by playing the game i've paid to play. Imagine that

The only real theory crafting im interested in really is like you'd use IRL. If i earn $1000/mo, and my insurance is going to cost me $100/mo, is it worth paying for LTI and having 10% of my game earnings spent elsewhere. If its only 1% of my earnings, it'll be so insignificant that paying +$5 IRL would seem completely pointless, its just a nice feature and not a big deal.

 

So what im interested in knowing (and im certain CIG dont know definitively, but must have some sort of idea) is some sort of proportionate scale as to what the insurance cost is going to be in the grand scheme of thing. They keep repeating 'its not that big a deal' and i cant help but think that means we're talking about insignificant costs.

If you think about it, if it was made realistic, where the vast majority of people work largely to stay afloat, to pay their bills and simply have a few luxuries from time to time, that'd be boring as hell. 60% of your income on hangar fees (think rent/mortgage, food/elec/gas/water/tv bills etc), 20% on ship insurance, 10% on landing fees (parking fees) and 10% left over from a month of 40h/wk's, and thats yours to save towards a new ship or weapon etc.

The bills need to be part of the game, but not feel like you're grinding in a 2nd job to unlock something new. So IMO, and seemingly CIG's, the cost of these living expenses will be minor as a whole, let alone just 1 of 3 insurance aspects.

 

Maybe at a $5 premium i'd add optional LTI, but i think in reality the expense in-game will be insignificant and not really worth the cost.

[Wu Jen]

For some reason I have a hard time not imagining that 'insignificant' SHI for a couple of Idrii might be fuel + ammo costs for a single person dog-fighter.

[reb]

Well I can't get LTI anyway so i sure hope everyone is right, I dont have a lot of cash to be pumping in for things like insurance on a ship I all ready paid for!