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Aopoa San'Tok.Yai


Danakar Endeel

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As part of my consideration for the Santok.Yai I tested the Khartu-Al. As I was leaving Lorville atmo i realised the KA HUD was broken, bugs already reported. What a shame.

But i feel attracted to it then this morning I realized why its due to the B5 EarthForce Star Fury:
Image result for babylon 5 starfury

Actually I pledged the warbond just before i went to sleep last night.

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10 hours ago, NewzyOne said:

I'm liking this ship more and more - I think it's what I wanted the Khartu to be

People...... people........ STOP judging the Khartu-Al for what is is now.   Ben Lensick (CIG) ------ ALWAYS ------ Said that you need to judge ships based on what CIG = INTENDS them to be ............ NOT ----- how they currently are or perform in game.

The Khartu-Al is a perfect example of this............ it will be RADICALLY different (and much more maneuverable compared to other ships - even more so than the Santok.Yai when the new Flight model comes out.

One of the biggest "melting" or "CCU's" people have done with their pledges was on their Khartu-al's and they are going to wish that they didn't.... ;)

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1 hour ago, VoA said:

One of the biggest "melting" or "CCU's" people have done with their pledges was on their Khartu-al's and they are going to which that they didn't.... ;)

 

The only reason I haven't is because I got mine at $150 instead of the current $170.  And I can't unmelt at that price because I got it via an LTI token upgrade.  So I keep it around for now knowing that I can melt it later (or more likely CCU it) if it sucks after the flight model change.

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1 hour ago, VoA said:

People...... people........ STOP judging the Khartu-Al for what is is now.   Ben Lensick (CIG) ------ ALWAYS ------ Said that you need to judge ships based on what CIG = INTENDS them to be ............ NOT ----- how they currently are or perform in game.

The Khartu-Al is a perfect example of this............ it will be RADICALLY different (and much more maneuverable compared to other ships - even more so than the Santok.Yai when the new Flight model comes out.

One of the biggest "melting" or "CCU's" people have done with their pledges was on their Khartu-al's and they are going to which that they didn't.... ;)

Well, the Khartu-al was sold to me as a competitor to Hornets. In these days it was equipped with 6 guns, a decent shield and a 2nd seat.

 

Then they decided to strip that down to 2 tiny guns and removed the 2nd seat.

 

Now they sell a new more expensive Xi'an fighter which they say fulfills exactly the role of the old Khartu-al. Apperently CIG INTENDS to ripp off their early customers and they did that not just with the Khartu-al.

 

That is what I call shady marketing and CIG earns every bad word that is around on them.

 

btw - it doesn't matter what Ben Lensick said. Marketing (aka Sandi Gardiner) always threw him under the bus, again and again and again.

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58 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

Well, the Khartu-al was sold to me as a competitor to Hornets. In these days it was equipped with 6 guns, a decent shield and a 2nd seat.

It still is - and even with it broken I can outmaneuver and wear down most Super Hornets in a Fight......... granted same can be said for a Gladiator and Buccaneer at this point and they have more firepower - but the SH can also more likely get a bead on them vs the Khartu-Al.   Again - the new flight model will make this even more extreme.

+++ It does have fast generating shields still

58 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

Then they decided to strip that down to 2 tiny guns and removed the 2nd seat.

If it didn't have 2 tiny guns it would be OP......... do you remember how OP an M50 was in ACv0.8 - 0.9?

but will never have the 2nd seat as we know (but there really isn't a need for it now is there?)

 

58 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

Now they sell a new more expensive Xi'an fighter which they say fulfills exactly the role of the old Khartu-al. Apperently CIG INTENDS to ripp off their early customers and they did that not just with the Khartu-al.

This is a FALSE statement and the San'Tok.Yai is very different than the Khartu-al - both in maneuverability and speed (but also armament and armor) - just like most Light Fighters differ from Medium fighters.

58 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

That is what I call shady marketing and CIG earns every bad word that is around on them.

HOW ???? Is it shady for CIG - when you are propagating falsehoods -  per above....    please do your research first - thanks ;)

58 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

btw - it doesn't matter what Ben Lensick said. Marketing (aka Sandi Gardiner) always threw him under the bus, again and again and again.

BTW - this is VERY bad advice for people to even contemplate this bias nonsense......... again - again........ do your research and stop being a cynic with false facts ;)

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1 hour ago, VoA said:

It still is - and even with it broken I can outmaneuver and wear down most Super Hornets in a Fight......... granted same can be said for a Gladiator and Buccaneer at this point and they have more firepower - but the SH can also more likely get a bead on them vs the Khartu-Al.   Again - the new flight model will make this even more extreme.

+++ It does have fast generating shields still

If it didn't have 2 tiny guns it would be OP......... do you remember how OP an M50 was in ACv0.8 - 0.9?

but will never have the 2nd seat as we know (but there really isn't a need for it now is there?)

 

This is a FALSE statement and the San'Tok.Yai is very different than the Khartu-al - both in maneuverability and speed (but also armament and armor) - just like most Light Fighters differ from Medium fighters.

HOW ???? Is it shady for CIG - when you are propagating falsehoods -  per above....    please do your research first - thanks ;)

BTW - this is VERY bad advice for people to even contemplate this bias nonsense......... again - again........ do your research and stop being a cynic with false facts ;)

I wouldn't defend too much CIG's last marketing moves ... maybe this ship is not a good example, but they are going into powercreeping, warbonds, excluding CCU on top tier ships, and whatnot to piss off old backers,

Back on topic: I do not purchase alien ships since I do not like their alien shapes (except the banu merchantman)

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1 hour ago, VoA said:

It still is - and even with it broken I can outmaneuver and wear down most Super Hornets in a Fight......... granted same can be said for a Gladiator and Buccaneer at this point and they have more firepower - but the SH can also more likely get a bead on them vs the Khartu-Al.   Again - the new flight model will make this even more extreme.

We shall see. I have high hopes for the new flight model... for 3 years now. So we shall see if they finally get it right.

1 hour ago, VoA said:

+++ It does have fast generating shields still

If it didn't have 2 tiny guns it would be OP......... do you remember how OP an M50 was in ACv0.8 - 0.9?

That was the time, when no amor was in game, right?

1 hour ago, VoA said:

but will never have the 2nd seat as we know (but there really isn't a need for it now is there?)

The original setup was 2 bigger fixed guns and 2x2 on remote turrets. I can very well imagine the use of a gunner or combat officer in the backseat.

1 hour ago, VoA said:

This is a FALSE statement and the San'Tok.Yai is very different than the Khartu-al - both in maneuverability and speed (but also armament and armor) - just like most Light Fighters differ from Medium fighters.

HOW ???? Is it shady for CIG - when you are propagating falsehoods -  per above....    please do your research first - thanks ;)

BTW - this is VERY bad advice for people to even contemplate this bias nonsense......... again - again........ do your research and stop being a cynic with false facts ;)

You can belief that if you like and enjoy your blue pill. I prefer the red pill. I watched them for years and did my research. I remember a lot what happened over this time although lots of people tend to forget all the lies and broken promisses. Maybe do some research on your own and complain less about people...... people........ 

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Khartu has always been a scout.  But it was also called a light attack craft.  Used to have 2 seats, 18 thrusters.  And significantly better weapons.  But the most damning piece of evidence of all?  The note that said "Ship specifications are preliminary and subject to change as the game is further developed and balanced."

Come on guys, you've had plenty of time to melt away your Khartu if you don't want it.  And if you got it for $150, you had plenty of time to re-buy something else with LTI with credit, before they got rid of that.  Chris Roberts hasn't screwed you here.

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28 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

We shall see. I have high hopes for the new flight model... for 3 years now. So we shall see if they finally get it right.

You should probably know that they had it closer to being right when AC first came out then some "crybabies" complained about that the ships were sliding too much (in space - go figure - guess they don't understand physics)....... but I am glad that CR finally decided to ignore these lame comments and do the flight model as it should be :)

39 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

That was the time, when no amor was in game, right?

Correct but they still did some makeshift damage reduction.  Right now it is more accurate especially with beam vs ballistic weapons

41 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

The original setup was 2 bigger fixed guns and 2x2 on remote turrets. I can very well imagine the use of a gunner or combat officer in the backseat.

That's because per lore the Khartu-Al was a direct competitor to the Super Hornet - however CIG decided on purpose to deviate from that long ago  (the Khartu-Al is Light Fighter and Super Hornet is a Medium Fighter).

43 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

You can belief that if you like and enjoy your blue pill. I prefer the red pill. I watched them for years and did my research. I remember a lot what happened over this time although lots of people tend to forget all the lies and broken promisses. Maybe do some research on your own and complain less about people...... people........ 

If you "Have done your Research" - you wouldn't have made the statement above.   Only cynics believe that CIG has lied, and made "broken" promises.......... those that understand the development of SC --------- ALL KNOW ---------- that the game is in "development and subject to change" ------ making your concerns irrelevant and naive.   CIG must change things to balance things, adapt to new tech, put in relation to new things developed etc...... and that's what they have done with the Khartu-Al...........  

If it were per lore known as the Quark by the UEE pilots......... then it would be way too OP for players to fly.   What we are given is an alien import which has an Alien Tax on it which adjusts its price point to UEE ships by comparison.

I personally like the fact that the Khartu-Al (and really Xi'an fighters in general) - play up a completely different type of flight style with the articulated rigs for thrusters......... but to balance this awesome maneuverability and faster charging shields........ they must have less firepower and less armor......... otherwise it would be way OP and broken.

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1 hour ago, VoA said:

You should probably know that they had it closer to being right when AC first came out then some "crybabies" complained about that the ships were sliding too much (in space - go figure - guess they don't understand physics)....... but I am glad that CR finally decided to ignore these lame comments and do the flight model as it should be :)

Are kidding me? Others and me propagandized for years that they should get rid of the current arcade style flight experience. We came up with solid solutions and CR choose to do... nothing. They even denied the problem and so we have FPS in space.

The only reason why they intend to change the flight model now is because all things start to come together and now the negative effects cannot be ignored anymore. Just like we said 3 years ago.

Thx for wasting time, money and nerves Mr. Roberts! However, I understand him ofc... milking different target groups got him to 200M+ dollars.

The need for a change is nothing new for people who are into the gameplay mechanics for years. Maybe CR is not the genius some people think he is.

1 hour ago, VoA said:

That's because per lore the Khartu-Al was a direct competitor to the Super Hornet - however CIG decided on purpose to deviate from that long ago  (the Khartu-Al is Light Fighter and Super Hornet is a Medium Fighter).

It was sold to me as a fighter with 6 guns. In these days the Hornet had 2 guns more than today (the two ones in the nose). The role of the Khartu-al was different from today and now they created the San'Tok.Yai to fulfill the original role. That stinks.

1 hour ago, VoA said:

If you "Have done your Research" - you wouldn't have made the statement above.   Only cynics believe that CIG has lied, and made "broken" promises.......... those that understand the development of SC --------- ALL KNOW ---------- that the game is in "development and subject to change" ------ making your concerns irrelevant and naive.   CIG must change things to balance things, adapt to new tech, put in relation to new things developed etc...... and that's what they have done with the Khartu-Al...........  

If it were per lore known as the Quark by the UEE pilots......... then it would be way too OP for players to fly.   What we are given is an alien import which has an Alien Tax on it which adjusts its price point to UEE ships by comparison.

I personally like the fact that the Khartu-Al (and really Xi'an fighters in general) - play up a completely different type of flight style with the articulated rigs for thrusters......... but to balance this awesome maneuverability and faster charging shields........ they must have less firepower and less armor......... otherwise it would be way OP and broken.

Ah, you still prefer the blue pill. Good for you, that's prolly a less stressy live.

CIG has broken so many promisses and lied so many times till now that I gave up counting. There's no difference to a common publisher anymore but a solid hardcore fanbase that defend every move of CIG no matter how crappy or shady it is.

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VoA is wrong about one thing I didn't mention in my last post: The Khartu was originally a competitor to the base Hornet (a $110 ship) at its $150 price, not the Super Hornet.  The Super Hornet came later.  I'd argue that it probably still is, or will be when the new flight model is in place.  The San'Tok is a competitor to the Super Hornet (a $165 then $180 ship) at its $220 price.  The price differentials are still there, the ships still occupy the same roles and slots as before.

But Stahl is right about this, "Now they sell a new more expensive Xi'an fighter which they say fulfills exactly the role of the old Khartu-al."  The stretch goal says "scout / explorer" but everything they said afterwards said "Hornet competitor"... with those 6 weapons (including 2 size 4s).  The only reason why I don't buy Stahl's argument is that players have had literally years to see that the Khartu fills a different role than the 6 weapon one.  It now fills the role indicated by the original stretch goal of "scout", and trades in "explorer" for light fighter. 

The San'Tok is the medium fighter the Khartu might have become had it those 6 weapons, but at the same time the Khartu is filling its stretch goal role yet still is a regular-Hornet competitor.

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Lots of arguments being thrown around in this thread.

 

Anger at CIG over Star Citizen's development always comes off as ill-informed or bitter.  Their business model, including their marketing practices, is sound and has allowed them to both increase the scope of their game as well as improve the quality of aspects that were already going to be included.  Claiming that they are making money off lies and broken promises is childish and indicative of a misunderstanding on how game development often occurs.  Star Citizen is a a unique case where a massive triple A game has been transparent and interactive with the general public for every single stage of its creation.  Rarely do design concepts remain unchanged from start to finish and the common belief that CIG is operating in a dishonest manner due to missed milestones or new game mechanic implementation is based on unfounded assumptions on how game's are created.  To go even further and claim that Chris Roberts is operating based around greed and that any of the marketing strategies are shameless cash grabs sounds spiteful.  Anyone who looks at the development of Star Citizen with an open mind can see quite plainly that this is a labor of love by both the developers and upper management.

 

Sure, CIG has made blunders such as the CitizenCon paywall and many others but no organization makes perfect decisions.

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13 hours ago, VoA said:

It still is - and even with it broken I can outmaneuver and wear down most Super Hornets in a Fight

I doubt that. I feel you're mixing relative pilot skill with ship's capabilities. KA isn't part of AC meta at all, not because it's got a buggy HUD but because it's just isn't nimble enough to consistently get an edge over other fighters and presents a huge target.

KA isn't a scout ship, it's just an undergunned, flimsy, nimble light fighter. It might play an interceptor role in the verse but that's just about it. Scouts will likely be ships with increased scanning/detection capabilities like Tracker(or another Hornet with the module) or Terrapin. Ships that can pick up other ships from a higher distance pretty much.

STY is a medium fighter, even it's a Xi'an design, it'll likely to have less agility than KA. It might have an OK loadout at 4x S3 hardpoints but I doubt it'll change Hornet/Sabre meta. Nevermind that it's not aerodynamic at all so it'll likely be worse in atmo, something AC meta doesn't currently encompass.

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9 hours ago, Stahlkopp said:

Are kidding me? Others and me propagandized for years that they should get rid of the current arcade style flight experience. We came up with solid solutions and CR choose to do... nothing. They even denied the problem and so we have FPS in space.

You obviously didn't play ACv0.8 and 0.9 then - since they did have the flight model that is vastly more correct then ..... than what we have now.

9 hours ago, Stahlkopp said:

The only reason why they intend to change the flight model now is because all things start to come together and now the negative effects cannot be ignored anymore. Just like we said 3 years ago.

"The only reason" - talk about a typical "internet cynic" = sad.......... no the real reason is CR always preferred realism.   He did cave to the criticism of "too much sliding" in the ACv0.8 and 0.9 flight model to end up with what we have now - only now to go back to something very similar.

9 hours ago, Stahlkopp said:

Thx for wasting time, money and nerves Mr. Roberts! However, I understand him ofc... milking different target groups got him to 200M+ dollars.

"milking different target groups" = are you serious......... I hope you don't approach life as cynical as you appear here.......... it would be VERY sad if you did....

9 hours ago, Stahlkopp said:

It was sold to me as a fighter with 6 guns. In these days the Hornet had 2 guns more than today (the two ones in the nose). The role of the Khartu-al was different from today and now they created the San'Tok.Yai to fulfill the original role. That stinks.

What was sold to you was a competitor to the Hornet (my bad I did mention SH as @Boildown corrected me) - and guess what it still is.   I can kill more Hornets and SH with my Khartu-al then I will loose fights to them (it takes awhile and requires a lot of practice but most Hornets are too slow for the Maneuverability of the Khartu-al = even in the current flight model.......... and this will be even more-so with the new flight model)

9 hours ago, Stahlkopp said:

Ah, you still prefer the blue pill. Good for you, that's prolly a less stressy live.

Its not a Matrix Color Choice....... it equals ........ a based on facts logical argument....... vs a fake news --- jump on the silly internet cynical bandwagon -  the same as the click-bait You-Tube critics.......... is what it is... ;)

9 hours ago, Stahlkopp said:

CIG has broken so many promisses and lied so many times till now that I gave up counting. There's no difference to a common publisher anymore but a solid hardcore fanbase that defend every move of CIG no matter how crappy or shady it is.

It isn't really possible for CIG to "break promises" during Alpha since they have stipulated that "EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE" - since the game is in development still.

----------

8 hours ago, Boildown said:

VoA is wrong about one thing I didn't mention in my last post: The Khartu was originally a competitor to the base Hornet (a $110 ship) at its $150 price, not the Super Hornet.  The Super Hornet came later. 

Agreed and I stand corrected - however.......... CIG never classified the Khartu-al in the early lore as a "Light Fighter".......... yet the Hornet has always been a "Medium Fighter"........ so once the Khartu-al became flyable......... it got reclassified as a "Light Fighter" - more comparable to the Gladius not the Hornet anymore ........... and is one of the very few cases where Lore got superseded by game development (its usually the other way around).

4 hours ago, Dabclipers said:

Lots of arguments being thrown around in this thread.

 

Anger at CIG over Star Citizen's development always comes off as ill-informed or bitter.  Their business model, including their marketing practices, is sound and has allowed them to both increase the scope of their game as well as improve the quality of aspects that were already going to be included.  Claiming that they are making money off lies and broken promises is childish and indicative of a misunderstanding on how game development often occurs.  Star Citizen is a a unique case where a massive triple A game has been transparent and interactive with the general public for every single stage of its creation.  Rarely do design concepts remain unchanged from start to finish and the common belief that CIG is operating in a dishonest manner due to missed milestones or new game mechanic implementation is based on unfounded assumptions on how game's are created.  To go even further and claim that Chris Roberts is operating based around greed and that any of the marketing strategies are shameless cash grabs sounds spiteful.  Anyone who looks at the development of Star Citizen with an open mind can see quite plainly that this is a labor of love by both the developers and upper management.

 

Sure, CIG has made blunders such as the CitizenCon paywall and many others but no organization makes perfect decisions.

AGREED and Well said :)

1 hour ago, Brightmist said:

I doubt that. I feel you're mixing relative pilot skill with ship's capabilities. KA isn't part of AC meta at all, not because it's got a buggy HUD but because it's just nimble enough to consistently get an edge over other fighters and presents a huge target.

KA isn't a scout ship, it's just an undergunned, flimsy, nimble light fighter. It might play an interceptor role in the verse but that's just about it. Scouts will likely be ships with increased scanning/detection capabilities like Tracker(or another Hornet with the module) or Terrapin. Ships that can pick up other ships from a higher distance pretty much.

STY is a medium fighter, even it's a Xi'an design, it'll likely to have less agility than KA. It might have an OK loadout at 4x S3 hardpoints but I doubt it'll change Hornet/Sabre meta. Nevermind that it's not aerodynamic at all so it'll likely be worse in atmo, something AC meta doesn't currently encompass.

I agree that during certain builds the Khartu-al becomes buggy but since I fight using decouple mode then couple with boost in addition to circle strafe (as oppose to the vast majority that just circle strafe) I have found that the more maneuverable fighters will take out the less maneuverable one......... granted - it takes awhile to kill things with the Khartu-Al but its faster shield regen helps it significantly.   What hurts it is when you are fighting a ballistic load out that gets a few lucky hits on you.

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Some relevant answers from the Arrow Q&A to the debate here....... ;)

for @Stahlkopp --->>  As always, balance is still being worked on and is subject to change.

 

How do you plan to create meaningful balance for light fighters considering the class now has 9 ships: Arrow, Gladius, Hawk, Aurora LN, Reliant Tana, Mustang Delta, 125A, Blade and Khartu-al?

 

The Arrow, Gladius, Mustang Delta, and Blade are all dedicated fighters and their flight characteristics and loadouts differ. The Aurora LN and 125A can both carry cargo while having combat capabilities. The Hawk can carry a prisoner and packs an EMP, making it ideal for bounty hunting. The Reliant Tana is meant for long range combat and features multi-crew gameplay. The Khartu-al is a scout ship meant to get in and out and use its agility rather than firepower. The light fighter category encompasses many ships, but the role and capabilities of each of these ships vary. We hope each one will fill a niche for different play styles.

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@VoA

There was a typo there that I corrected.

KA just isn't nimble enough to get an edge over other fighters consistently in the current flight model so I think what you're perceiving is just a matter of relative difference in pilot skill.

KA is just a huge target that's hard to miss and STY will be no different in the new FM. Having a main-centric flight model doesn't mean we'll get WWII in space as a dogfighter meta since it's not sustainable for a game with the scope of Star Citizen. We have ships ranging from 10 meters to 3000 meters and we'll have 2 flight models, atmo & space, one being slower than other. If the most nimble ships in-game(relatively, excluding racers), light/medium fighters(these are all small ships) end up with severely restricted 6-dof movement in space, bigger ships(medium or large) shouldn't really be able rotate at all in atmo which will generate an unacceptable gaming experience. So even if they'll add drift and drag to the flight model in 3.5, fighters will still likely be facing each other in space combat in the new flight model.

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5 hours ago, VoA said:

@Boildown

however.......... CIG never classified the Khartu-al in the early lore as a "Light Fighter"..........

It was from the very beginning.  "Xi’an Scout Unlocked! The Khartu is the light attack craft of the Xi’An military."

Unless you're going to argue that "light attack" doesn't mean "light fighter". Which would be ridiculous.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13324-Letter-From-The-Chairman-23-Million

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7 hours ago, Brightmist said:

@VoA

There was a typo there that I corrected.

KA just isn't nimble enough to get an edge over other fighters consistently in the current flight model so I think what you're perceiving is just a matter of relative difference in pilot skill.

Perhaps and I am one of the few that still uses Decouple fight and turn off safeties  - but regardless - the new flight model will greatly improve the performance of the Khartu-al = CIG has always maintained it is the most maneuverable ship - and I stick my pledges based on CIGs intent - not a current flight model.   ALSO remember per lore that the Khartu-al is an exceptional racer as well (great speed but primarily about its ability to round obstacles with a tighter spline path)

7 hours ago, Brightmist said:

KA is just a huge target that's hard to miss and STY will be no different in the new FM. 

The KA is only large from the front / rear ==== not from the sides / top / bottom - and a skilled pilot should know this and thus present this profile as they maneuver around to potential firing arcs.   The STY will also benefit from the new flight model but not as greatly as the KA mainly due to the mass difference.  The STY also doesn't have as small of a sides / top / bottom profile as the KA - but will make up for it in armor as medium fighters compensate for their weaknesses.

7 hours ago, Brightmist said:

Having a main-centric flight model doesn't mean we'll get WWII in space as a dogfighter meta since it's not sustainable for a game with the scope of Star Citizen. 

The big thing is - it has to be immersive for space battles - (with lack of drag or air-lift values -  which they can now and will use in atmospheres).   Another big reason for the change is the lack of difference between ships in how they perform and the KA will end up being on one extreme end of the scale with the STY not far behind (but certain ships like the Arrow / Buccaneer / M50 / and other light fighters may having some better maneuvering options due to small mass)

7 hours ago, Brightmist said:

 

So even if they'll add drift and drag to the flight model in 3.5, fighters will still likely be facing each other in space combat in the new flight model.

What will impact ships in the new flight model will still be the Overpowered Previous VTOL and Manuvring thrusters being scaled down in output and also the shape of the craft will influence its lift factor.   CIG mentioned this specifically about the Gladius and flying wing shapes like the Eclipse and Sabre Raven

-------------

2 hours ago, Boildown said:

It was from the very beginning.  "Xi’an Scout Unlocked! The Khartu is the light attack craft of the Xi’An military."

Unless you're going to argue that "light attack" doesn't mean "light fighter". Which would be ridiculous.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13324-Letter-From-The-Chairman-23-Million

It's previous armament / potential second seat / in lore direct competitor to the Hornet places the early KA more in line with a Medium Fighter....... even if classified as a Light attack craft (maybe just on the higher end of the light fighter scale).    This is usually somewhat subjective in borderline cases.    What CIG has done was to move away from this and play up its "Scout" function...... and "Racer" function..... more so than its "Attack" function (and had to to balance it)........ but then to compensate further they increased its shield generation rate........ knowing that its Hull is Fragile and its Armor is weak.

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I'm totally fine with whatever they do for atmo stuff since it's really bad atm but I still think they should keep the ability to fly 6-dof in space for all fighters even they reduce the strength of maneuvering thrusters.

It's just that I wish they implement all changes together, that is flight model/weapon/missile/countermeasure/ESP changes because doing them separately is likely to end up in a disaster.

Currently countermeasures don't really work at all, ESP is fubar, missiles are really buggy and there's no weapon balance. If they just put in a new flight model and hope that everything's going to turn out fine, they're gonna be in for a rude awakening.

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6 minutes ago, Brightmist said:

I'm totally fine with whatever they do for atmo stuff since it's really bad atm but I still think they should keep the ability to fly 6-dof in space for all fighters even they reduce the strength of maneuvering thrusters.

6-DOF should be limited depending on thruster strength which will be gimped know as it should (since they are OP now big time) + atmospheric density and ship profile + mass should all affect each ship's performance.    The Articulated Rigs on the KA and STY will give the Xi'an fighters a huge advantage in atmospheric flight (including their light composite materials)

==========

Also some abbreviated info from Jump Point Magazine below...

Spoiler
p.png?page=12&scale_percent=0

XI’AN MARKS THE SPOT

The final step for the concept artists was creating the array of marketing

art needed to reveal the ship to the world. The ship was to be given a

place of honor at the 2948 Intergalactic Aerospace Expo event planned

for

Star Citizen

’s anniversary. For the first time, the annual ship expo

would be presented not just on the Roberts Space Industries website, but

within the game universe itself, with a special pavilion full of interactive

experiences created on the newly-launched planet Hurston. The San’tok.

yāi was scheduled to be the event’s concept reveal, launched midway

through the event.

Paul Jones and the concept team began with a series of pre-viz images

for the promotion. They identified the biggest challenge: how do you

best show the ship in action while taking into account the alien design?

How do you make sure the alien look comes across but also that players

appreciate how it will work with the systems they already understand?

In the end, the much-discussed shield technology wasn’t included in

an image as it had become a standard, familiar component instead of

a more complex presentation. Given a wide latitude to develop scenes

of the fighter in action, the art team worked on a series of scenarios

that show the ship from different angles. From there, it was a matter of

creating individual component images, blueprints, and other breakouts

that would populate the presentation page and associated brochure.

The official rollout for the San’tok.yāi began in mid-November 2018 with

the slightest hint hidden in a lore article in the Subscriber newsletter:

‘Aopoa’s headquarters, where any number of Human test pilots,

engineers, press agents, and more are working on the next release of

Human-converted ships like the Khartu-al, Nox, and San’tok.yāi’. Citizens

began speculating immediately and, armed with already-established

information on the Xi’an language, were able to begin to translate the

ship’s name. San was already known to mean vehicle and the tok.yāi

was recognized from an established creature, the Ma’tok.yāi, meaning

‘animal that creates fear’. With that, the community was able to deduce

that it would be a combat ship... but guesses ranged from imposing

battlecruisers to high-tech hovertanks. A second tease stoked speculation

further, coming in the form of an obscured version of the first landed

composition that was presented during the first day of the Aerospace

Expo. From there, the San’tok.yāi’s curtain call was only days away.

WORK IN PROGRESS

AOPOA SAN’TOK.YĀI

REFERENCES:

SHIP PAGE

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ships/aopoa-santokyai/Santokyai

CONCEPT PRESENTATION

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16877-Aopoa-Santokyai

Q&A

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/16872-Q-A-Aopoa-Santoky-i

JUMP POINT MAGAZINE //

25

26

 
 
 
 
p.png?page=13&scale_percent=0

SAN’TOK.YĀI MEDIUM-CLASS FIGHTER -

INTELLIGENCE HISTORY

On 2948-11-28, the Aopoa Council sent shockwaves through industry

watchers with the announcement that their San’tok.yāi medium-class

fighter was available for purchase in an export model. This decision took

the Human civilian and military authorities by surprise, undercutting years

of effort to learn more about the Xi’an’s notoriously secret aerospace

program. While it is not possible for a Human publication to properly

catalog the Xi’an medium fighter development due to the limited amount

of information available, it is possible to track the United Empire of Earth’s

efforts to gather their own intelligence on the spacecraft and its precursors.

Analysts agree that the current generation of Xi’an medium fighter was

introduced to replace an aging prior design around 2934, although

it is believed that off-production-line military conversions began

significantly earlier. Under this theory, Xi’an home guard units could

have a new medium fighter design as early as 2915, with the Empire

only choosing to reveal the design to Earth in 2934 in response to

the previous summer’s minor trade dispute. Human signal intelligence

began noting unexpected movement among Xi’an units stationed along

the old Perry Line, with many existing medium fighter squadrons that

were previously believed to have been on permanent assignment

leaving after years on station. In December, secondhand reports began

to filter back suggesting that sightings of older-style Xi’an dogfighters

had dropped sharply and that a new design had begun to appear. This

was in line with what was known about the highly regimented manner in

which the Xi’an Empire had deployed new spacecraft in the past. Unlike

Human units, which typically slowly transition to new designs, the Xi’an

has always taken an all-or-nothing approach, manufacturing spacecraft

to a long-term schedule and replacing designs en masse in a given

theater so as to reduce the need to continue providing duplicate service

and support processes.

The UEE military was immediately concerned with both the overall

political meaning of upgraded mainline dogfighters along their border and

the potential threat offered by this unfamiliar fighter. The Navy, concerned

about the development of its next generation of ‘space superiority fighter’,

was especially keen to gather intelligence on the new Xi’an ship. The

fighter was given the intelligence reporting name ARES and assets in the

Xi’an sphere of influence were issued a memo instructing them to gather

information wherever possible.

INTELLIGENCE HISTORY

THE

AOPOA

SAN’TOK.YĀI

The following extract is from the 2948 Whitley’s Guide to Spacecraft’s

INTELLIGENCE HISTORY

Apoa San’tok.yāi Intelligence History (Addendum.) Reprinted with permission.

Whitley Guide is the property of Gallivan Publishing, 2860-2948, all rights reserved.

CONSTRUCTOR: AOPOA

2 7

CRAFT: SAN’TOK.YĀI

CONSTRUCTOR: AOPOA

2 8

CRAFT: SAN’TOK.YĀI

The first reliable military accounts of the Xi’an medium fighter in service

came in 2937, when a Hornet on a training mission came within scanner

range of a group of six on patrol. Information gathered in this encounter

regarding the speed and maneuverability of the medium fighter confirmed

existing theories that it operated an upgraded version of the dual-vector

maneuvering thrusters found on the earlier Khartu-al. In April 2938, a

remote sensing outpost recorded a pair of Xi’an medium fighters coming

to the rescue of a transport besieged by raiders outside of visual range.

The sensor recording confirmed secondhand reports about the improved

dual thrust array and, most importantly, spectrum analysis revealed for

the first time that the ship’s centerline energy weapon was a model of

laser repeater not yet encountered. Additional encounters with the Xi’an

medium fighter were recorded throughout the late 2930s, each providing

small clues as to its overall capabilities, with other unspecified intelligence

assets filling out the picture. Recently declassified military reviews from

this period believe that the ship was a rough parity with the F7A Hornet or

the civilian-model Super Hornet.

In 2941, the military had their closest encounter to date with enigmatic

medium fighter. On the morning of September 24th, a manned

reconnaissance outpost in the Yā’mon (Hadur) system detected a major

explosion which was quickly traced back to the orbit of one of the system’s

dwarf planets. Sensors indicated that a debris field had formed at the site

of the explosion, with metallurgical analysis revealing that it most likely

consisted of metals processed by the Xi’an. Further observation revealed

that in addition to the debris field, now believed to have originated from an

explosion aboard a larger Xi’an packet ship, there were four tracks on the

snowy planet itself consistent with soft-landings by fighter-sized ships.

The outpost’s crew concluded that an accident aboard a Xi’an transport

had stranded several short-range escort fighters, forcing them to crash

land on the planet as onboard oxygen supplies diminished.

The planet in question was particularly distant from both Human and

Xi’an settlements. No distress call had been received from the packet

ship or her escorts. Analysis suggested that even if Xi’an authorities knew

the rough location of the crash, it would take some time for the ships

to be declared overdue and for a capable rescue party to be deployed.

Meanwhile, elements of a UEEN escort squadron were conducting space

trials within communication range of the covert reconnaissance outpost

that performed the initial study and analysis. The base commander made

the decision that the possibility of rescuing survivors from the crashed

spacecraft was valuable enough to risk revealing the location of his

outpost. He dispatched all available information to the destroyer group,

prompting them to move into range of the crash sites.

A pair of Argo spacecraft dispatched from the UEES Eagle’s Talon found that

the ships in question were indeed Xi’an medium dogfighters. Two of the four

escorts had not made controlled descents at all; they had suffered heavy

damage in the initial explosion and had been completely destroyed in the

crash. Survey teams transmitted scans of the wreckage and moved to locate

the other ships. The third fighter was found in better condition: the ship had

skidded to a stop on an icy plain. Crew from the escort began de-icing the

wreck site to quickly reach the pilot. The work ended in tragedy when the

industrial heating units set off what is believed to have been a still-armed

munitions package on the ship’s wing destroying the entire site. All members

of the first rescue team and the fighter’s pilot were killed in the blast.

 
 
 
 
p.png?page=14&scale_percent=0

AOPOA SAN’TOK.YĀI

MANUFACTURER

AOPOA

MAXIMUM CREW

1

MASS

106.566 KG

LENGTH

24 M (LANDED)

BEAM

23 M (LANDED)

HEIGHT

10 M (LANDED)

ROLE

COMBAT/FIGHTER

EJECTION SEATS

1

CARGO CAPACITY

0 SCU

CONSTRUCTOR: AOPOA

CRAFT: SAN’TOK.YĀI

CONSTRUCTOR: AOPOA

CRAFT: SAN’TOK.YĀI

 

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Actually, at 106000 kg, STY weighs about 38% more than a SH and it doesn't have an aerodynamic design at all so it shouldn't be nimble in atmo. They stated this in the past, mainly alien fighters being designed with space in mind and so it will likely leave something to be desired in atmo.

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5 hours ago, Brightmist said:

Actually, at 106000 kg, STY weighs about 38% more than a SH and it doesn't have an aerodynamic design at all so it shouldn't be nimble in atmo. They stated this in the past, mainly alien fighters being designed with space in mind and so it will likely leave something to be desired in atmo.

Agree except for the articulation of the main thrusters will more than compensate.   Also if the wings adjusted for  maneuvering in which we know that they don't but if they did it would make for an awesome fighter... I also happen to be an aerospace engineer and while the design may not be suitable for fast straight flight ....you actually want a shape that would allow you to put air brakes  or various lift surfaces in different directions.

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On 12/1/2018 at 10:04 AM, VoA said:

You obviously didn't play ACv0.8 and 0.9 then - since they did have the flight model that is vastly more correct then ..... than what we have now.

You seem to get me wrong. I played AC0.8 a lot and that is what sold me to SC and what I want to play. Not the currenct arcade flight model wich I hope they'll will change in a good way. 

On 12/1/2018 at 10:04 AM, VoA said:

"The only reason" - talk about a typical "internet cynic" = sad.......... no the real reason is CR always preferred realism.   He did cave to the criticism of "too much sliding" in the ACv0.8 and 0.9 flight model to end up with what we have now - only now to go back to something very similar.

You're a true believer and defend CR regardless what he does. Hate to bring it to you, it's Chris Roberts... not CHIRST Roberts.

He is just a human and although he made some greate games and directed a couple of good movies he make mistakes and is biased and wants to proof that he was right on Freelancer (wich he was not).

On 12/1/2018 at 10:04 AM, VoA said:

"milking different target groups" = are you serious......... I hope you don't approach life as cynical as you appear here.......... it would be VERY sad if you did....

[]

It isn't really possible for CIG to "break promises" during Alpha since they have stipulated that "EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE" - since the game is in development still.

Given that you're a true believer I can understand that lack of sense of reality. However as you say you're an engineer (like me), your misconception about development of the game and marketing of the game is astonishing and naive. 

The first target group were the space sim enthusiasts. They were promissed the Damn Best Space SIM Ever. These were the times of AC0.8 and these people got the project of the ground. After they spend their money the focus went on the arcade and casual gamers and we got the crappy flight model we have right now. After that they discovered the Battlefield FPS crowd and we got Tonks, ships to transport them, land claims and ground bases. 

You still think this is some kind of a crowdfunding project - it is not. Not in a legal way (there goes 'everything is subject to change'), not in a financal way (at least in the EU it's preordering a digital product) and not in a moral way.

So, if you want to continue that discussion I suggest that we do that in a separate thread.

--

ofc I got a CCU from the Khart-al as the STY fits the role the Scout was originally intend to.

 

Right now the mass of 106 tons ist significantly more than of every competitor (as correct as the ship matrix is right now):

Hurricane ~ 86

Sabre ~ 78

Hornet F7C ~  73

SH ~ 78

Khartu-al ~ 67

Gladius ~ 50

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