Core problem with 6dof, what do you think?

[HardStyleFist]

Hello there,

so I'm having this major issue with the game only few people seem to be bothered by and that is (to me) that dogfighting isn't fun. It's propably the most core mechanic of the game since it's the initial idea behind it and I beleive 6dof simply ruins it.

My problem is that (as illustrated in the first picture) if you see an enemy you have two unappealing options.

1. (purple line) you aim directly at him. What will happen is that you will dramatically overshoot his trajectory and even worse, your distance to the enemy will increase a lot. So you don't get the feeling of getting at the enemy's tail. Despite chanigng your own flight direction and orientation, you will still feel like a turret since the distance to the other ship first shirnks rapidly only to increase at the same speed afterwards - exactly what would happen if you were stationary.

2. (red line) you "plan ahead" as CR states is necesseary to master the flight model. This means that you adjust the ships direction in order to follow the flight path your enemy went. Problem here is that in order to do so, a big part of your thrust is needed to first work counter your initial movement and erase the speed vectors perpendicular to the enemy's vectors. That makes you go really slow at one point and thus also results in increasing distance between you and your target.

So as both options - and I know that there are in-betweens - ultimately don't result in getting you and your opponent closer to each other, we get what we have in AC: A feeling of "hopping" and jousting. So my question is why doesn't CIG see these problems and change it? The second picture I posted illustrates what would happen in athmosheric flight. Here you can aim at the enemy and at the same time get on his tail. This is the simple reason why we see this in every Sci-fi-flick ever from Star Wars to Star Trek. It is not only more cinematic but also way more fun. 

Now many will say that this would go against the idea of a space sim and I aggree. BUT the flight model as it is already has nothing to do with being a space sim:

- In space there wouldn't be speed limits as long as your thrusters still have fuel (except relativistic mass increase). 

- There actually is a lot of gravitational pull when hovering above planets even outside their athmosphere. You would need  to first get into orbit in order to "hover" without thrusters.

- To make coupled mode work, your tiny tiny maneuvering thrusters would need power comparable to your main ones. I don't know what CIG's explanation for this is, but to me, little air exhaustion is hardy comparable to a 3 meter diameter rocket at the back of your ship.

My solution to this would be to simply make up some randomn sci-fi-techno-bs to justify an athmospheric flight model in space. For example there could be some form of "turbo-ether" or stuff that was discovered and all the ships glide through it. Lore wise this could even be expanded like the "mass effect" in the game of the same name where the discovery enabled space flight in the first place. CIG wouldn't even have to redesign their ships since they all allready have air intakes (for whatever reason, propably to make them look more like fighter jets). We could then still have 6dof for docking maneuvers but only at slow speeds.

Also, gettin a joystick woulld make way more sense then. Because as it stands, mouse control is superior.

Now I know that there is close to zero percent chance that they will change it but is's been bothering me for some time and I would like to know what other people in the community think about this. When I google this, all I can find is discussions about minor tweaks but hardy anyone questions the design in general.

[J. Coren]

Where to start...

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

My problem is that (as illustrated in the first picture) if you see an enemy you have two unappealing options.

1. (purple line) you aim directly at him. What will happen is that you will dramatically overshoot his trajectory and even worse, your distance to the enemy will increase a lot. So you don't get the feeling of getting at the enemy's tail. Despite chanigng your own flight direction and orientation, you will still feel like a turret since the distance to the other ship first shirnks rapidly only to increase at the same speed afterwards - exactly what would happen if you were stationary.

2. (red line) you "plan ahead" as CR states is necesseary to master the flight model. This means that you adjust the ships direction in order to follow the flight path your enemy went. Problem here is that in order to do so, a big part of your thrust is needed to first work counter your initial movement and erase the speed vectors perpendicular to the enemy's vectors. That makes you go really slow at one point and thus also results in increasing distance between you and your target.

3). Side boost parallel to your opponent and hit them in the side

4). Side boost around them in a circle, as they will likely be doing with you

There are 3 major points about 6dof combat once it's once a furball has started. 1- Always be aiming at your enemy 2 - Always be moving 3- Vary up your direction of travel, because travelling in a predictable path is just as bad as standing still. The jury has been in on this with games going all the way back to games like Descent.

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

This is the simple reason why we see this in every Sci-fi-flick ever from Star Wars to Star Trek. It is not only more cinematic but also way more fun. 

Star Trek animates it that way because how ships move in a fight is not as important to each episode as the conflict presented to the characters aboard the ships getting thrown around in chairs with sparking instrument panels. Star Wars is like that because George Lucas wanted to make a WWII movie that paid homage to Flash Gordon, and filming models moving in 6dof would have been too difficult in the mid 1970s.

In both universes, the physics of space combat does not matter because there is the intention to tell a story with action rather than have the action color how the story is told. There are universes which incorporate realistic physics in combat such as The Expanse, but the difference there is they they establish up front that the manipulation of energy is primary to space combat rather than being just a storytelling device.

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

- In space there wouldn't be speed limits as long as your thrusters still have fuel (except relativistic mass increase). 

This is an arbitrary limitation designed to keep players from breaking the game. Almost every space game has this with a few notable physics-based titles like Kerbal Space Program. Someone could potentially move too quickly for the server to handle and cause a bunch of problems, especially in multicrew ships.

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

- There actually is a lot of gravitational pull when hovering above planets even outside their athmosphere. You would need  to first get into orbit in order to "hover" without thrusters.

As people have confirmed and demonstrated, yes. You would need to power down your thrusters to see your ship get pulled around by gravity. There is even a gif floating around on this site of that exactly.

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

- To make coupled mode work, your tiny tiny maneuvering thrusters would need power comparable to your main ones. I don't know what CIG's explanation for this is, but to me, little air exhaustion is hardy comparable to a 3 meter diameter rocket at the back of your ship.

They are comparable. They just don't have the same acceleration rate the main engines have. Thrusters have to move the entire ship in any direction, and given time they will move the ship in any direction at its full speed.

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

My solution to this would be to simply make up some randomn sci-fi-techno-bs to justify an athmospheric flight model in space. For example there could be some form of "turbo-ether" or stuff that was discovered and all the ships glide through it. Lore wise this could even be expanded like the "mass effect" in the game of the same name where the discovery enabled space flight in the first place. CIG wouldn't even have to redesign their ships since they all allready have air intakes (for whatever reason, propably to make them look more like fighter jets). We could then still have 6dof for docking maneuvers but only at slow speeds.

 

To justify a completely different flight model from what was advertised by explaining that there is suddenly enough mass within the vacuum of SPACE to make an atmospheric flight model viable means they'd have to tack something on that would sound utterly and completely nonsensical.

Space is space is goddamn SPACE! It is vast, empty, and characterized by the lack of matter which objects can move through, thus why our species has come to call this vast expanse of nothing "space".  It's just easier to convince people that thrusters have become so powerful nearly a millennium from now that gravity from even the largest of planets is counteracted, allowing for 6dof movement.

More importantly though, Chris Roberts wants this to be a 6dof game, so that means it will be. It's his game, and that's how he likes it, and that's how it will be. If he wanted a model more like Wing Commander or the Elite games he would have made it that way, but he didn't.

And if that irks you, I suggest you reconcile with your predicament, because CR and the majority of players do not see any of this as a "core problem".

[Booster Terrik]

I suggest you both grab an old PC and play Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos. This game had the best newtonian flight model I ever saw in a game. It did make space battles completely different from most other space games but this difference made it quite enjoyable. I would not mind having full newtonian physics but I can imagine most people would find it boring since it is typically setting up a run and then a few (milli) seconds of action after which you manouver for another attack run (or run away). For players that don’t like dogfihting and want to avoid pvp newtonian physics are great: it is really hard to catch ships in space that don’t want to be caught because plotting an intercept at very high speeds is really difficult and under/overshooting means your chance of a kill is gone. The only chance to catch a ship is if you happen to fly on a similar heading (so a tail chase) and then this only works if you have more acceleration. For people in trade and industry this model would be great: pick up enough speed in safe space and you will be relatively safe until you start your braking near your target system.

 

[Chimaera]

@HardStyleFist I think the biggest thing you need to understand is that 6DOF was THE major selling point of this game during its original KS inception. Very few people will look at what you've posted and agree with you because virtually everyone who backed the game was aware of this dynamic. There are a huge number of titles out there, including Elite Dangerous, that follow the flight modeling you seem to want for SC....but that isn't what people wanted when they backed SC. They wanted a truly immersive, massive universe, with as close to realistic flight modeling as was possible. Originally the idea of coupled flight mode wasn't even a thing. Everything was going to be all 6DoF, but that turned out to not be very practical so it was abandoned very early on. 

As for cinematic experiences that approximate 6DoF, check out the BSG reboot from the early 2000s.

[GeraldEvans]

So, one of the benefits that 6dof brings is that you can be pointing at the target the whole time. Set decoupled mode on, and point at the target. You won't be able to maneuver directly at the target without redirecting a lot of inertia, but you can be pointing at it and moving closer simultaneously without losing speed.

 

To do that you need to plan ahead and actually allow an arc to the intercept for where the ship will be. It does work, but it's a challenge. And that's where the skill comes in.

[XLB]

Imma be a dick to everyone else that has replied to this thread. Until I see them actually fly. OP, please DM me directly if you need help with flight and combat. I ranked 11th in BR 2.6.2 season on leader boards and have several videos showing what I do. Link provided. Space-moose who is also rank 8 in 2.6.2 is my wingman and will back me up anything I say. Now everyone in this form that thinks they know probably does not. There is a lot of bad information out there that I am trying to kill off.

 

I am not here to boost my ego, I am here to help teach people, and put it into practice not theory or what they think they know. I have won fights against the very best pilots in the game, and space-moose and I did a 2v2 tournament over a year ago with the best pilots in the game and placed 3rd out of 19 teams. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160768048

 

Sorry to anyone else I might have offended, but OP or anyone else. lets talk privately and meet up for some actual flight training.

[Boildown]

I agree with you, OP, an atmospheric flight model is far more interesting than a 6dof flight model.  But I also willingly concede that the game isn't being made to my ideal specifications, and chose to back it anyways.  Because there's a lot more things I'm going to like about this game than dislike.

@XLB What's your controller setup? What would you say most of the top 100 players use?

[Space-Moose]

2 hours ago, Boildown said:

I agree with you, OP, an atmospheric flight model is far more interesting than a 6dof flight model.  But I also willingly concede that the game isn't being made to my ideal specifications, and chose to back it anyways.  Because there's a lot more things I'm going to like about this game than dislike.

@XLB What's your controller setup? What would you say most of the top 100 players use?

Dual Joysticks

[XLB]

2 hours ago, Boildown said:

I agree with you, OP, an atmospheric flight model is far more interesting than a 6dof flight model.  But I also willingly concede that the game isn't being made to my ideal specifications, and chose to back it anyways.  Because there's a lot more things I'm going to like about this game than dislike.

@XLB What's your controller setup? What would you say most of the top 100 players use?

dual joystick, you can see my overlay on my command on the twitch highlight.  I would say most top 50 pilots also use dual stick, there are some amazing KB/M users for sure that are in the top numbers as well, but it took them even longer to master KB/M. You never really see high level players use hotas ever. It just does not have the analog control needed for what is required for top level. They only person I have seen something truely unique is my buddy Lamarro from 11th hour. He took a hotas and a xbox 1 controller, cut the controller in half, and model pasted it to the back of the hotas, and wired it all up to work. https://clips.twitch.tv/ImpartialTacitBatSSSsss

[HardStyleFist]

First let me say thanks for all the nice replys. And please dont get me wrong, I do see that the 6dof model will be way more immersive and also requires a lot of skill to master. SC is not supposed to be too casual and I like that about it.

But my point is that it actually is less FUN to dogfight. For example in the twitch video XLB posted:

17 hours ago, XLB said:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/160768048

At around 0:35 you can see that both ships, while rotating, are practically standing still. I see this a lot and it makes the flight model feel broken to me.

 

On 21.6.2018 at 10:58 AM, J. Coren said:

4). Side boost around them in a circle, as they will likely be doing with you

My examples didn't factor in the other ship changing trajectory because I wanted to show the effect the flight model has on distances between ships in dogfights. Of course both ships can circle around each other and shoot at the same time but that doesn't sound very appealing to me.

 

On 21.6.2018 at 10:58 AM, J. Coren said:

More importantly though, Chris Roberts wants this to be a 6dof game, so that means it will be. It's his game, and that's how he likes it, and that's how it will be. If he wanted a model more like Wing Commander or the Elite games he would have made it that way, but he didn't.

Sure, but any game developer should allways question his design choices and be able to adjust if necessary. Besides, that's not the point of this post. All I wanted to dicuss is what is more fun, not what will actually be made.

 

17 hours ago, GeraldEvans said:

So, one of the benefits that 6dof brings is that you can be pointing at the target the whole time. Set decoupled mode on, and point at the target. You won't be able to maneuver directly at the target without redirecting a lot of inertia, but you can be pointing at it and moving closer simultaneously without losing speed.

That is exactly what I don't like about it. Being able to fire at the target the entire time is what makes you feel like a turret. Also, if you are at top speed, the only way to change direction wthout losing speed is to turn you ship perpendicular to your flight path and accalerate. Your turn radius is then predetermined by the acceleration of your engine. The planning ahead is also hardly doable if your opponent isn't going in a straight line.

 

Finally take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOQ1qdDpNWc . In one on one, the fighting decays to circle stafing and jousting. I really worry that a huge chunk of the player base, including me, will get bored with this rather quickly.

 

[HardStyleFist]

On 21.6.2018 at 10:58 AM, J. Coren said:

To justify a completely different flight model from what was advertised by explaining that there is suddenly enough mass within the vacuum of SPACE to make an atmospheric flight model viable means they'd have to tack something on that would sound utterly and completely nonsensical.

Space is space is goddamn SPACE! It is vast, empty, and characterized by the lack of matter which objects can move through, thus why our species has come to call this vast expanse of nothing "space".

But then they would have to explain why all the ships were designed as if they weren't flying in SPACE. They have wings, air intakes and are streamlined.

[Chimaera]

4 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

But then they would have to explain why all the ships were designed as if they weren't flying in SPACE. They have wings, air intakes and are streamlined.

Because the ships also fly in atmosphere...Which they can do right now in the PU.

[GeraldEvans]

@XLB, I'd like to commend you on not actually following up with your threat to be a dick.

Your skill and that of @Space-Moose is indisputable, and you go on to support the model and offer assistance.  If that's being a dick, I'm going to have to question my sexuality because I'm apparently a huge fan. 😂

[Stahlkopp]

To be fair, CR and others spoke lots of times about WW2 dogfights in space as well as to get the 'Wing Commander' feeling just with realistic physics.

Furthermore, the plane shape of lots of ships was often a topic.

 

Aside from that the current flight model is far off optimal. It's boring turrets in space although some people really like and mastered it.

There's still lots to do for CIG. However, this would mean that they know what to do and which kind of experience they want in the end. 

[Space-Moose]

I'll try to address all your points @HardStyleFist
Which patch where you most active in? If it's only recently I'd suggest taking a little break as IFCS and ESP have been broken for the past couple of months, rumor has it they will be fixed in 3.2 but unconfirmed.
This could be the reason why you think dog-fighting isn't very fun right now.
I 100% agree with @Chimaera and @J. Coren post so I'm not going to add onto that, instead I'm going to answer some of your counter points

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

At around 0:35 you can see that both ships, while rotating, are practically standing still. I see this a lot and it makes the flight model feel broken to me.

I can't see Disi hud, but'd I'd throw down alot of money that he hasn't turned off Gsafe/comstab and he's not using boost to his advantage.
This is probably why alot of people look like they are practically standing still.
Disi likely looks like he's standing still because @XLB is strafing down with Disis' roll to maintain an orbit around his cockpit for the quick kill.

 

 

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

On 6/21/2018 at 4:58 AM, J. Coren said:

4). Side boost around them in a circle, as they will likely be doing with you

My examples didn't factor in the other ship changing trajectory because I wanted to show the effect the flight model has on distances between ships in dogfights. Of course both ships can circle around each other and shoot at the same time but that doesn't sound very appealing to me.

Circle strafe is the most basic maneuver, and it's also the most powerful maneuver right now.
Back in 2.6.3, circle strafing while boosting and Gsafe off would result in "goat feint" (your head falls to the side, similarly to a black/red out but without the color prompts). 3.0 saw the removal of that feature and we desperately need it back. Circle strafing is incredibly powerful right now but once flight is fixed, it's easily exploitable.

 

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

On 6/21/2018 at 4:58 AM, J. Coren said:

More importantly though, Chris Roberts wants this to be a 6dof game, so that means it will be. It's his game, and that's how he likes it, and that's how it will be. If he wanted a model more like Wing Commander or the Elite games he would have made it that way, but he didn't.

Sure, but any game developer should allways question his design choices and be able to adjust if necessary. Besides, that's not the point of this post. All I wanted to dicuss is what is more fun, not what will actually be made.

 

If all you want to do is discuss the fun factor of atmospheric flight over space flight well... it's ok for you to be wrong XP.

 

 

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

On 6/22/2018 at 12:26 PM, GeraldEvans said:

So, one of the benefits that 6dof brings is that you can be pointing at the target the whole time. Set decoupled mode on, and point at the target. You won't be able to maneuver directly at the target without redirecting a lot of inertia, but you can be pointing at it and moving closer simultaneously without losing speed.

That is exactly what I don't like about it. Being able to fire at the target the entire time is what makes you feel like a turret. Also, if you are at top speed, the only way to change direction wthout losing speed is to turn you ship perpendicular to your flight path and accalerate. Your turn radius is then predetermined by the acceleration of your engine. The planning ahead is also hardly doable if your opponent isn't going in a straight line.

So @GeraldEvans, ty for call out, but just to make a correction, you do NOT have to go decoupled to orbit a hostile, just keep your nose on target, set throttle to 0, and angle your stick or use W/A to keep a tight orbit.
and @HardStyleFist, you don't have to be at top speed to engage someone, only to close vast distances.

 

11 hours ago, HardStyleFist said:

Finally take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOQ1qdDpNWc . In one on one, the fighting decays to circle stafing and jousting. I really worry that a huge chunk of the player base, including me, will get bored with this rather quickly.

While the man obviously won his match, I wouldn't showcase his style as the way to win fights, the circle strafing and jousting can be easily exploited and defeated with a 45 degree roll and some boosted vertical strafing.
As of 3.0 I can agree flight is boring, here's to 3.2 getting the fixes in and flight being similar to 2.6.3.

[XLB]

old school circle strafing alone is boring. when you angular fight, and you are fighting someone that is also trying to angular fight.. it gets intense. you are going to be fighting black outs mechanics on top of trying to gain an edge where you are the one on top.. it is harder to explain than to show. 

 

Gerald, to the Decoulped mode.. if M/KB or sticks or anthying. unkeybind throttle all together and just use strafe forward/back instead of throttle. with m/kb controls its all digital input so its 0-100,  only way to get any analog.. you have to Tap your keys a lot to remotely get an analog feel. I know some poeople who actually do this though and they do it well. 

If you are not facing your target at all times, you are losing. Unless there are multiple targets at a time and they know how to aim.. you have already lost. If you have the aim, and the movement.. you might just outplay them. here is 1v3 with Juntau, zeus omega and da dasdeimos