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Zarian

Battle Group Configiration

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Hey all!

          Today I wanted to do a bit of theory crafting. Before I begin, I want to preface this post by saying, all ideas and rationale presented here are totally contingent on if CIG can deliver on all that they've promised about Star Citizen. Now, 2018 promises to be the year of "ships (or pixels) gone wild". With two concept sales already in the books (and its not even June yet), I decided to take a look at all the ships that we currently know about and construct a well-balanced Battle Group in theory craft. 

Before we get too far into it, I figured we'd eliminate the Bengal Carrier to begin with as they will be extremely difficult to man and maintain. Not to mention, we'd have to disable/capture or recover one in order to even have it in the first place. So for simplicity sake, we'll save that ship for another theory craft. Instead, lets utilize the Javelin as our center piece capital ship. What would a well-balanced battle group capable of dealing with a variety of missions look like? What would be their effective operational range? And what types of missions would you expect it to excel at?

Okay, here's the fun part (for me anyway). Set up your ideal battle group. Please give supporting details to help everyone understand your thought process.

This is how I'd envision my group. 

Main Ships                       Support Ships                                                 Fighters                                    Ground Vehilces

1x Javelin                        10x Hammerheads                                            4x Super Hornets                      2x Nova Tonks

2x Idris (M)                     2x Starfarers                                                    3x Sabres                                 2x (of each Tubril buggies- minus the RC variant)

4x Polaris                        1x Carrack                                                       2x Vanguard Sentinels                

                                      4x Vulcans                                                       4x Vanguard Wardens

                                      1x Cutlass Red                                                 

                                      2x C-2 Hercules'

                                      1x Hornet Tracker

                                      1x Hornet Ghost

                                      1x Vanguard Hoplite (or Cutlass Black)

                                      1x Terrapin 

 

Okay, so there's A LOT here, lol! So lets dissect. The Javelin will be the Command ship. A mini Bengal for today's purposes. The Idris' will act as close in support/protection for the Command ship, each able to hold up to 3 Hornet class fighters. *Side note: All hornets will be housed in the Idris'* 

The Hammerheads will fulfill their role perfectly and will be placed strategically at the flanks and around the formation for defense. Each 'Main Ship' could have at least two Hammerheads assigned to them for defense with two left over, which I would assign to protect the Starfarers as they run continuous missions to refill and refuel the battle group. 

The Carrack's scanner package could prove to be valuable, even if its they're not used for exploration purposes. You can never get enough eyes on a potential target.

The Vulcans would act mainly as smaller refuel ships. They wouldn't obviously wouldn't need to repair anything unless a conflict breaks out. 

The C-2's... strictly for ground units. 

The Cutlass Red will be housed inside of a Polaris. The Sabres will be housed in the other Polarii as well. 

The Hoplite (or Cutlass Black) will be housed inside the Javelin's ship fighter bay. Both would be valuable for their drop ship qualities. I'd most likely go with a Cutlass Black as you can fit more players inside for a larger away party. 

The Terrapin would help to keep eyes on a contact. The Sentinels would be valuable for their electronic warfare capabilities. The Wardens would act as our ranged attackers/harassers until the Sabers arrive to provide support. The Super Hornets would be used for fleet defense or added firepower for the other fighters. 

The Tonks.... do what Tonks do, of course! And finally, the Tumbrils will full a variety of roles and could be very effective when coupled with the Tonks for assaults on the surface of a planet.

 

I hope you all get a kick out of this type of theory craft as much as I do! Feel free to share. What would you do differently? Do you agree with the logic used?... etc... etc...

 

 

 

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obvious fllaws after just reading it 10 seconds:

 

* no Hope class endeavor for fleet medical support and respawn

 

* no bomber (missing gladiators and retaliators, sorry polaris won't be enough for bombing runs).

 

* not enough fighters to provide the mandatory mobility when we see that much support ship.

 

* your starfarer are geminis I assume

 

* cutlass red won't fit into a polaris.

 

* the requested man power for such a battle FLEET is insane.

 

 

this fleet looks like you want to build a defensive battle group (just looking at the number of hammerheads), correct?

it is clearly missing offense.

 

to answer yoru question about our ideal battlegroup:

Against what?

for what purpose?

attack vanduuls? defend a fleet? destroy an outpost?

gather minerals?

 

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4 hours ago, Zarian said:

snip

Important things you missed:

  • Replenishment tenders
  • Repair tenders
  • Hospital ships
  • Electronic warfare
  • Torpedo bombers
  • Adequate number of fighters
  • Adequate number of scout ships
  • No Argos

Here's a different  version

Spoiler
  • 1x Javelin
  • 4x Idris
  • 6x Polaris
  • 12x Hammerhead
  • 2x Starfarer Gemini
  • 1x Hope-class Endeavor
  • 1x Hull-E
  • 2x Caterpillars
  • 2x Vulcan
  • 2x Crucible
  • 1x Cutlass Red
  • 1x Redeemer
  • 4x Terrapin
  • 2x Herald
  • 16x Gladius
  • 4x Eclipse
  • 2x Hornet Ghost
  • 6x Vanguard Harbinger
  • 3x Vanguard Sentinel
  • 4x Argo Cargo
  • 12x Dragonfly

Reasons for composition:

Spoiler

 

This fleet forgoes a ground force in order to focus more on space supremacy and zone control. Any marine assault forces would need to be tacked on as a separate fleet with their own escorts. I've given up on trying to minimize the number of personnel involved since it's out of control already.

Capital ships can be divided into up to 3 groups for multi-pronged attacks of various compositions depending on the threat. Javelin is at the center and can leave behind the support fleet with two Polaris supporting it. Idris can pair off to attack from other angles or engage multiple groups of enemies with at least two Polaris backing up each group for fast attack. Hammerheads can split 2/2/4 or 3/3/2 while still allowing 4 hammerheads to constantly be escorting the support fleet.

For smaller ships, the Cutlass Red will be with the Endeavor, the Redeemer with the Javelin, each Idris with 4 Gladius and one Eclipse (this is being conservative with available hangar deck space, there may be room for more) as well as their cArgos, and four Polaris with a Terrapin in them and two with a Hornet Ghost (also being safe with space being as we don't know how big the hangar will be). Gladius are preferred fighters because they take up less space, are faster, easier to fix and punch above their weight. Eclipses give the fleet 12 Size-9 torpedoes to engage enemy ships with in one sortie. Terrapins are the eyes and ears, so having 4 on patrol will help to keep the fleet from being ambushed. Ghosts can tail the enemy when they've been found. Harbingers are a fast attack group that can harass enemy support ships while Sentinels accompany battle groups to provide electronic warfare. Surely there will be more room for at least 12 Dragonflies throughout the fleet that can be assembled for boarding actions or raids.

Support ships like the Endeavor will help provide spawn locations as well as being a hospital for the wounded. The Hull-E will be the replenishment tender for armaments. The Crucibles fix ships big and small while the Vulcans are first responders. The Caterpillars carry some ammo, but are focused on fleet sustainment and resupply. The number of Geminis can be scaled up in pairs depending on how much fuel Starfarers can carry against how much fuel a capital fleet consumes. The Heralds will be tasked with trying to comms duty.

 

 

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1 hour ago, J. Coren said:
  • 1x Javelin
  • 4x Idris
  • 6x Polaris
  • 12x Hammerhead
  • 2x Starfarer Gemini
  • 1x Hope-class Endeavor
  • 1x Hull-E
  • 2x Caterpillars
  • 2x Vulcan
  • 2x Crucible
  • 1x Cutlass Red
  • 1x Redeemer
  • 4x Terrapin
  • 2x Herald
  • 16x Gladius
  • 4x Eclipse
  • 2x Hornet Ghost
  • 6x Vanguard Harbinger
  • 3x Vanguard Sentinel
  • 4x Argo Cargo
  • 12x Dragonfly

Don't forget the 500+ people and AI needed to crew all that.

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3 hours ago, J. Coren said:

Important things you missed:

  • Replenishment tenders
  • Repair tenders
  • Hospital ships
  • Electronic warfare
  • Torpedo bombers
  • Adequate number of fighters
  • Adequate number of scout ships
  • No Argos

Here's a different  version

  Hide contents
  • 1x Javelin
  • 4x Idris
  • 6x Polaris
  • 12x Hammerhead
  • 2x Starfarer Gemini
  • 1x Hope-class Endeavor
  • 1x Hull-E
  • 2x Caterpillars
  • 2x Vulcan
  • 2x Crucible
  • 1x Cutlass Red
  • 1x Redeemer
  • 4x Terrapin
  • 2x Herald
  • 16x Gladius
  • 4x Eclipse
  • 2x Hornet Ghost
  • 6x Vanguard Harbinger
  • 3x Vanguard Sentinel
  • 4x Argo Cargo
  • 12x Dragonfly

Reasons for composition:

  Hide contents

 

This fleet forgoes a ground force in order to focus more on space supremacy and zone control. Any marine assault forces would need to be tacked on as a separate fleet with their own escorts. I've given up on trying to minimize the number of personnel involved since it's out of control already.

Capital ships can be divided into up to 3 groups for multi-pronged attacks of various compositions depending on the threat. Javelin is at the center and can leave behind the support fleet with two Polaris supporting it. Idris can pair off to attack from other angles or engage multiple groups of enemies with at least two Polaris backing up each group for fast attack. Hammerheads can split 2/2/4 or 3/3/2 while still allowing 4 hammerheads to constantly be escorting the support fleet.

For smaller ships, the Cutlass Red will be with the Endeavor, the Redeemer with the Javelin, each Idris with 4 Gladius and one Eclipse (this is being conservative with available hangar deck space, there may be room for more) as well as their cArgos, and four Polaris with a Terrapin in them and two with a Hornet Ghost (also being safe with space being as we don't know how big the hangar will be). Gladius are preferred fighters because they take up less space, are faster, easier to fix and punch above their weight. Eclipses give the fleet 12 Size-9 torpedoes to engage enemy ships with in one sortie. Terrapins are the eyes and ears, so having 4 on patrol will help to keep the fleet from being ambushed. Ghosts can tail the enemy when they've been found. Harbingers are a fast attack group that can harass enemy support ships while Sentinels accompany battle groups to provide electronic warfare. Surely there will be more room for at least 12 Dragonflies throughout the fleet that can be assembled for boarding actions or raids.

Support ships like the Endeavor will help provide spawn locations as well as being a hospital for the wounded. The Hull-E will be the replenishment tender for armaments. The Crucibles fix ships big and small while the Vulcans are first responders. The Caterpillars carry some ammo, but are focused on fleet sustainment and resupply. The number of Geminis can be scaled up in pairs depending on how much fuel Starfarers can carry against how much fuel a capital fleet consumes. The Heralds will be tasked with trying to comms duty.

 

 

I love this arrangement! I elected not to include any hospital ships as they may lack the mobility to evade enemy fire and would most likely be unarmed or lightly armed, which is a dangerous notion for anyone. Instead I chose to rely on the medical facilities of the Polarii and the Javelin since they are more hardened targets. I brought a ground detachment because grind combat will definitely be a thing and its importance can not be understated. Other than that, I could definitely agree on all other points.

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6 hours ago, Chimaera said:

Don't forget the 500+ people and AI needed to crew all that.

Let's not forget that CIG is aiming to have all players in a single instance via server meshing tech. I did preface this post that everything would be contingent on if CIG can deliver on that promise and others. If they can't deliver on that promise, obviously the metrics would change. Besides that, Imperium currently has thousands of players within its ranks. Last time I checked, we were the fifth largest org according to spectrum. 500+ voluntary players would almost be a drop in the bucket. If we ever had the hope of owning a Bengal, the crew compliment for that ship alone be be about double the 500 you quoted here. So numbers are just that...numbers. If we, as an org, manage our resources right, the numbers will behave how we want them to. 

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1 hour ago, Zarian said:

Let's not forget that CIG is aiming to have all players in a single instance via server meshing tech. I did preface this post that everything would be contingent on if CIG can deliver on that promise and others. If they can't deliver on that promise, obviously the metrics would change. Besides that, Imperium currently has thousands of players within its ranks. Last time I checked, we were the fifth largest org according to spectrum. 500+ voluntary players would almost be a drop in the bucket. If we ever had the hope of owning a Bengal, the crew compliment for that ship alone be be about double the 500 you quoted here. So numbers are just that...numbers. If we, as an org, manage our resources right, the numbers will behave how we want them to. 

we already had this discussion and a couple of others tried (without success) to convince you that this is not realistic due to time zones, people playing with friends, doing something else, disconnecting...

it was in this thread:

 

at that time, you were talking about 110 people and we already thought it was insane... here you think of 500+.

 

You can theorycraft all you want, anybody with a little experience of how "raids" are working, will tell you that you will NEVER have 500+ people in one operation ( or something VERY VERY VERY special that i can't even think of).

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18 minutes ago, Amy Babe said:

You can theorycraft all you want, anybody with a little experience of how "raids" are working, will tell you that you will NEVER have 500+ people in one operation ( or something VERY VERY VERY special that i can't even think of).

This is where I call "bullshit".

The EVE universe has seen battles in excess of those numbers numerous times. It all comes down to having the numbers and organizing around time zones.

Getting this many people will not be impossible (unless the servers disallow it), it will just require a lot of preplanning and moving pieces around a board to make sure that when things touch off you have more than your enemy.

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@ J.Coren: let me call bullshit on your post too ^^

they we even the things!

 

when people use sentences with "normally", or "you just need to"... i don't believe it.

This is only my own opinion, and today there is nothing you can do to convince me, nor anything i can do to convince you, since we can't show actual facts.

I just rely on my DAOC, everquest, WOW, guildwars experience when we never reached such numbers...

 

But if it actualy becomes possibnle, i'll be very happy and my Polaris will be there

 

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28 minutes ago, Amy Babe said:

we already had this discussion and a couple of others tried (without success) to convince you that this is not realistic due to time zones, people playing with friends, doing something else, disconnecting...

it was in this thread:

 

at that time, you were talking about 110 people and we already thought it was insane... here you think of 500+.

 

You can theorycraft all you want, anybody with a little experience of how "raids" are working, will tell you that you will NEVER have 500+ people in one operation ( or something VERY VERY VERY special that i can't even think of).

So if a fleet is solely based in North America, you think time zones would still be an issue? I can name a flurry right now, 600 players strong, all based in the same time zone. A few are one time zone over... I don't they'll be as big a problem as you may think.

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You know what? let's ask for the fleet officers to let us know what they believe of 500+ crewmen for an operation, they know much about our assets, our organizations and people have been working hard already on these topics.

 

If the fleet commander or sub-commanders believe it will work, i'll believe you.

 

@Ostia

@Chimaera

@Operations Officer

does this look realistic to you? no need to go into secret details dealing with Imlperium assets. a Yes or No would make it.

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24 minutes ago, Amy Babe said:

@ J.Coren: let me call bullshit on your post too ^^

they we even the things!

 

when people use sentences with "normally", or "you just need to"... i don't believe it.

This is only my own opinion, and today there is nothing you can do to convince me, nor anything i can do to convince you, since we can't show actual facts.

I just rely on my DAOC, everquest, WOW, guildwars experience when we never reached such numbers...

 

But if it actualy becomes possibnle, i'll be very happy and my Polaris will be there

 

This is theory crafting. Not something proven in game yet. If there's nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise, then this post is not for you. Much like you tried to convince me and failed, the same stands true here. Nuff said...

@Amy Babe

3k players in a single instance in Eve online.... Theory proven. Thousands of players in one instance

 

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I'm all for this kind of theorycrafting since i am heavily interrested in this kind of topices as well as organizing large scale operations in star citizen myself.

see the squadron i'm in, for instance.

 

But i like to theorycraft on realistic things, and to me this it not something that will happen.

I already told you in the very first reply of this topic what i thought would be the flaws obvious in your fleet, and asking for what kind of operations you wanted this battlegroup.

you did not even take one second to answer.

 

So this topic is clearly for me sorry!

Still waiting for you to answer btw...

 

 

 

edit:

We are both of us into the military, I don't know what your ranking is, I'm OF4, lieutenant colonel in french air force. but this is not a competition. I mention this just to let you understand that i'm REALLY interrested in logtistcs and operations so let's have a deal.

* define an opposing force

* describe the mission

* let's assume we have infinite assets of each type

* define a number of "crew points" that we can use to achieve the mission. (Total War style)

 

purpose of the exercice:

* we build our fleet to achieve the mission

* we detail the battle plan with drawings and timelines

THIS would be interresting theorycrafting.

 

 

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@J. Coren theory is not proven. Comparing EvE's system and SC's system is like comparing a mouse maze to a metro system. In EvE, a single asset is controlled by a player. Size, rendering, tracking of player is tied directly to the ship and its player, with some tracking for things like missiles (lasers and guns are instant effect). Physics is extremely basic in EvE as well. SC will be tracking a ship, people walking on the ship, the animations and actions of the many ship components, the assets moving through space, where each player and client connection is being tracked within that specific space and asset, all of the realistic physics, as well as whatever the players are wearing or doing...all at high fidelity. EvE doesn't do any single one of these things, yet when they have a "3000 player" battle, the servers have to be spun down to a fraction of their normal speed in order to be able to process all the of the inputs, actions, and assets being tracked. While yes, 3000 players can be tracked by certain games and engines (World War II Online pulled off 1000+ player battles for Antwerp back in the early 2000s), they aren't doing so with realistic physics, with multiplayer and multicrew asset and client tracking, with realistic bullet time, laser, and missile tracking, all the while tracking other assets like planets or asteroids. So, while you can say the idea of 3000 players fighting against each other has been proven, the way this would happen in Star Citizen has never been done.

@Amy Babe while I can't necessarily speak for the @Operations Officer group, I can state (as you have) that there is quite the archive of these kinds of theory-crafts, and our position as Fleet Command has been the same. The TL;DR is that we certainly hope that CIG will end up being able to pull off operations at such a large scale, but we simply don't know what the maximum scale will be for the game, and to try to make CONCRETE plans or policies around such kinds of unknowns is simply asking to waste effort. It can also cause lots of potential frustration and drama, and we've seen entire organizations die because of drama that began in this sphere. This is why we have the leadership structure we have, and why the officers are in perpetual planning mode right now. For the longer version, here it goes.

We work on broader plans and policies based off of four factors: 

1. What has been hinted at by CIG.

2. What's been planned and outlined by CIG.

3. What's been CONFIRMED by CIG.

4. What is currently implemented by CIG.

Factor 1 leads to theories and broader ideas of where we would like to go with certain aspects of the game. Factor 2 leads to more narrowed plans and outlines. Factor 3 leads to actual plans and policies being made, discussed, analyzed, put through their paces. Factor 4 leads to actual policies, actions, strategies, and in-game implementation.

Right now, the topic of 500+ players being able to operate in the manner suggested by this particular theoretical discussion falls into category 1. While people may claim that it is in category 2 or 3, there has never been concrete discussion plans or outlines of potential design models illustrated on this topic of large-scale multi-crew operations and battles. CIG has been woefully silent on this topic for years. What HAS been PLANNED and OUTLINED by CIG is that they are shooting for 100-200 players per instance. All other aspects of this topic are either outdated or have been retconned. What "instance" means for the long-future of the PU has not even been defined yet either, as they don't even have the back-end design completed for 100 player instances in the traditional sense (like being IMPLEMENTED currently on the PU Alpha servers). The last time they mentioned this (that I can find) was a broader "general idea" for a design that doesn't actually address the question of how servers would work with large-scale crews on multiple large shipshttps://youtu.be/n6g-ECx-7xw?t=17m24s 

 

So, while we can certainly have discussions or theories about what we think MAY or COULD happen with large-scale fleet operations, we simply CANNOT make hard-fast decisions or plans for operations of scale that has not yet been CONFIRMED, let alone been planned or outlined by CIG. As it is, while the above listings of "battle groups" may be cool to talk about or think about, we won't be designing Imperium's policy around things that we would LOVE or LIKE, but instead around what we KNOW CIG is going to implement.  I hope that answers your questions @Amy Babe. If anyone else in @Fleet Commander or @Operations Officer would like to add or subtract anything from what I've said, feel free to chime in.

 

On the theory-crafting side of things, what I'm failing to see here is a justification for having such battle groups in the first place. The only "territory control" that CIG has CONFIRMED will be on planetside, via their outpost and claims system. Because of the lack of confirmation, plans, or outlines of how instancing will work, we don't know if that control will apply to ALL instances of that zone on a planet, or only a specific instance of that zone. Which then begs the question of how to ensure "control of space and airspace" when CIG has yet to provide concrete plans or designs for how instancing will work in space zones. There was a lot of lofty talk and "theoretically, this may be the way it works" back in 2014-2016, but they haven't actually given us any real designs of how they plan to implement servers and instances for some time. Any talk on the subject basically refers to past theoretical ideas, and that they're still designing the back end. So while the whole idea of having a large battle group sounds cool, I'm not sure if there will actually be a situation in-game, in the near or long term, that would actually justify having that many assets and that much manpower tasked to a single group or operation.

Instead, I see it more likely that the "larger" fleets we'll see will be something akin to an Idris + escorts + a couple of support craft. This is actually backed up in the overall lore of Star Citizen with the way the UEE tasks its fleet assets. Squadron 42 isn't about being a pilot attached to a ship that's a part of a massive fleet, but instead being a pilot attached to a SINGLE ship that's covering an entire sector. I expect that the idea of large battle/fleet groups a-la Star Wars-type games will be more the exception than the rule, if they're even allowable by game mechanics.

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I think you guys need to think smaller.  Say 100 players instead of 500.  100 is a number that many MMOs do on a regular basis.  And you have to remember, you gotta leave room for your opponent in the instance as well, so to be fair, its a 200 player instance instead of 100 in this case.

Also, fighting for "the fun of it" will be expensive and tiresome.  You gotta consider why you're fighting.  For example, maybe you're mining asteroids and another group wants to take the mined materials from you.  How much of a defensive force can you have at a mining outpost and still make a profit on the mining?  So take some of your 100 people and put them into mining and hauler craft, and do some math about profitability.  Now you have a challenge.  If half your manpower is protection and the other half is mining and hauling, your fighting ships are outnumbered 2 to 1.  Can you still design a defensive force that can win vs the ships the attackers might bring?

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Geez... Nevermind. (Some of) You guys are so serious. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to play just to play. Test the limitations of the product. Find new ways make and keep the game interesting. If it comes down to it, I'll foot the bill for the eight Hammerheads and two Polaris in my personal hangar. I'm not talking numbers for a reason. I don't care about them right now. We don't know much about the game mechanics and what the final product will look. We have even less idea about the expense. Even if CIG can get everyone into a single server, I still want to push the game to its limits just to see what it can handle.

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Without going in the technical feasibility of the proposal, we may prefer to focus on the ratio player / efficiency. 

As an iteration I can propose this : 

Core assets : (16 crewman)
1 x Starfarer : to sustain the action (2 crewman)

1 x Polaris : as the Control & Command ship (6 crewman)

1 x Cutlass Red : as SAR ship (2 crewman)

2 x Vulcain : to maintain light ships during shorts break the long term (2 crewman)

1 x Endeavor as multipurpose ship to be adapted to the mission (field hospital for disaster relief, repair station, ammunition stock, barracks for troopers) (4 crewman)

 

Sensors assets : (13 crewman)

2 x Carracks : as remote probe unit (8 crewman)

1 x Constellation Aquila : as the central radar unit (3 crewman)

2 x 350R : as scout, for visual inspection of unidentified contacts (2 crewman)

 

Effector assets : (29 crewman + 32 troopers)
2 x Retaliator : for strike purpose against medium and heavy targets (6 crewman)

12 x Sabre : for strike against light targets (12 crewman)

2 x Avenger Warlock : to take down incoming swarm of light fighters (2 crewman)

2 x Avenger Titan to ferry small boarding party (2 crewman + 4 to 6 trooper per ship)

1 x A2 Hercule, the gunship for ground operations (3 crewman)

1 x M2 Hercule to ferry all you want to the ground (4 crewman + 20 troopers)

 

 

The requirement for this battlegroup are the following : 
Low man power requirement

Capability to refuel "en route"

Capability to repair "en route" 

Fuel autonomy of at least 1 Hour for light ships

Ability to propose escalation of power against unidentified contacts (rejoin, visualy inspect, boarding visit, electromagnetic neutralisation ...)

Ability to conduct ground operation against 1 defended outpost

Ability to monitor a large area

Ability to deal with 1 capital ship and it's light escort

The proposed configuration requires 58 players to face a good range of menace, and is quite lightweight while packing a lot of punch. 
At the moment the carrack is very crewman consuming ... but I don't see a smaller ship with such range and radar capability. 
This configuration is very focused toward space superiority for low intensity combat : if a vandull cap ship pop up you should better retreat and call for reinforcement. 
A typical mission should be 2 to 3 hours with 1 breack for refueling (and satisfy biological requirement for the players ^^)


This fleet is quite autonomous and don't require a large logistical footprint. 

The main drawback is that it lacks a huge burst of firepower (with a pack of gladiator) ... but maybee the freelancer in its missile configuration could do the job. 

 

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Looking back over this thread, I'd offer that when someone uses the term 'theory crafting' they are giving themselves license to go off the 'realistic' reservation. So, IMHO, we should  give them that license without leaping too soon to how impossible, unrealistic, repetitive, or  wrong that idea is. 

The reason is that its … theory crafting.  The whole purpose of theory crafting is not to be right.  It is to …. dream.  And this whole web site exists to create interest in and allow us some space to dream together about a make believe world.  

When someone says 'theory crafting', I dont care if an idea was covered on another thread.  I dont care if its outlandish.  I dont care if its confirmed.  I'd rather see the ideas are flowing here.  That's what matters.  If its not safe to do that, it squelches fleet creative discussion and camaraderie.  And we need to avoid that. 

Cheers!

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1 hour ago, Sky Captain said:

Looking back over this thread, I'd offer that when someone uses the term 'theory crafting' they are giving themselves license to go off the 'realistic' reservation. So, IMHO, we should  give them that license without leaping too soon to how impossible, unrealistic, repetitive, or  wrong that idea is. 

The reason is that its … theory crafting.  The whole purpose of theory crafting is not to be right.  It is to …. dream.  And this whole web site exists to create interest in and allow us some space to dream together about a make believe world.  

When someone says 'theory crafting', I dont care if an idea was covered on another thread.  I dont care if its outlandish.  I dont care if its confirmed.  I'd rather see the ideas are flowing here.  That's what matters.  If its not safe to do that, it squelches fleet creative discussion and camaraderie.  And we need to avoid that. 

Cheers!

Well said! There are quite a few posts where I've seen a theory craft crushed. We need to be careful not to become toxic like some elements of the vocal minority with the SC community as a whole.

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I'm sorry folks, theory crafting is not fantasy, theorycrafting to me is serious...

otherwise let me explain here how i plan on destroying a battlegroup with a single reliant kore for the sake of theorycrafting, and pleas people you have no other choice than say that what i write is amazing and that you are so lucky to have me around.

ok?

 

theorycrafting, imho, is more likely thinking before hand on the best plans that we will actually apply depending on a situation.

 

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The point is : there is a balance between bringing in new ideas and refining them to get usefull ressources. 
People should be encouraged to bring in continiously new idea. 
But people should not be afraid of contradiction.

There is also a balance between contradiction and harsh critisism.
But if an idea is bad, we should be able to point it and explain why :)

The important thing in theorycrafting is to define the input hypothesis. 
If the hypothesis change, the result may change, but the reasoning may be still correct :)

Explaining thoses hypothesis allows to identify the potential flaw in the reasoning, improve it, and bring added value to everybody 😀

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