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Zarian

Hammerhead escorting role; Weapons loadout follow-up

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Hello Everyone,

          I hope everyone enjoyed the holiday and an even better new year. Just after the release of the Hammerhead during the 2017 Anniversary sale, I wrote about the uses of the Hammerhead and its practical uses in escort operations. For any who are curious, follow the link below.
 

 

Today's post is to follow up and give further examination and detail of how essential this ship will be when operating in escort and fleet operations. Please keep in mind that scenarios, such as this, are only possible assuming CIG is able to achieve the goal of having all players in a single server.

Now lets reset the scene: We have established a new contract with a mining org and they are willing to pay much coin to ensure their shipments aren't jacked by pirates or worse. In the past, they been robbed by coordinated pirate groups flying Cutlass Blacks, Buccaneers and Caterpillars. They even claim to have barely escaped an Idris in a recent shipment. Armed with this knowledge, we prepare what forces we have available for a short notice escort.

 

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Please excuse the misrepresentation as the website has yet to be updated. (http://u-tec.yefec.com) In my previous post, I spoke about how I initially purchased six Hammerheads. Since that post, I now own eight and a Polaris to round out the bigger ships in my hangar. (And yes, I'd be willing to lend them out for fleet ops) In the picture above is an example of a layered defense, incorporating multiple craft in a coordinated effort. 

 

At the Center of image, we have the resource that we're tasked with protecting, represented by an Orion Mining ship. The ship immediately to the right and left, will be Hammerhead Gunships (represented by Polarii) Those two ships will provide close-in support/protection for the resource while providing a final denial line against incoming threats. The four smaller ships around the Orion are a flight of F7C-M Super Hornets. They provide added support to the Close-in sentry ships, but stay with the resource at all times in the event the sentry ship have to pull away to attack a larger threat.

Just behind the aforementioned group of ship will be a pair of Retaliator Heavy Bombers. This bomber presence will help with dealing with larger, more lethal targets that may prove difficult for the Hammerhead force to contend with. As the Retaliator also has two manned turrets, they can assist with anti-fighter defense if they are not dispatched to deal a higher priority target. In between the two Tali's is Terrapin (or Hornet Tracker). This seemed to be a logical choice due to the advanced sensor package both of these ships come with. The Hornet Tracker, in particular, has been described as having Command and Control capabilities for fighter force. This position would be ideal to scan long range to pick up an enemy force approaching. Though we don't know the extent of how scanning will work, Chris Roberts has already said in a 10 for the Chairman that stealth ships would be difficult to detect due to their low emission output. He went on to say that dedicated scanning ships, (such as the Tracker) would be able to detect stealth ships through a variety of methods, including "cross-section scanning and a weapons lock early warning system". That last part is particularly interesting as an early warning system is something we don't currently have in-game and its that type of system that could be the middle ground between stealth and scanning ships... but I digress.

The ship at the very bottom of the image, in the center, is a Polaris. This will be the Command and Control ship, able to bring more torpedoes to the fight and handle larger targets while providing refuel and rearming services to the fighter force (what size ship exactly, we don't know since its still in development). With its larger radar, it may provide added range and detection abilities needed to effective in combat scenarios. 

On both sides of the Polaris are a flight of Gladii. Their speed and agility could prove extremely useful if they are deployed to take on Eclipse Stealth Bombers, IF an early warning detection system utilized by the Hornet Tracker can detect them quickly enough at range. These Gladii will be the workhorse of the unit, being deployed to attack targets and hold enemies at bay until reinforcement arrive.

The surrounding five surrounding ships, represented by Polarii, are Hammerheads as well. Their weapon loadout will be staged for a more ranged attack. So I've decided to run M6A Laser Cannons on those. *Explanation in the above link*

At the front of the formation, on either side of the lead Hammerhead, are a flight of four Sabres. They have a dual role. 1st) Mop up any targets in the immediate area and assist the Gladii force in tracking down and killing targets. 2) They will provide reinforcement of the forward scouting force, located at the top of the image. Only the Field Commander can authorize their detachment from the main force to assist the scouts. Caution must me used as deploying them so far away from the main force could be a lure to soften up defenses, even if its minimally. 

Finally, but definitely not least, the forward scout force (top of image). Their whole job is perhaps the most important of any. They are required to scout far ahead of the main force to gather intel and seek out any potential threats to the mission. At its core is a Terrapin, which can be swapped out for a Hornet Tracker. Either ship will do in this case as both will be well suited to handle detection processes. I would probably opt for the Terrapin though, due to its hardened shell of hull. It'll be able to take a lot of damage if a trap is sprung. As its escorts, the Terrapin will be accompanied by a flight of four Vanguard Wardens. With their extended range, and hull durability, it only seemed like the ideal selection for long range operations. 

 

This is an operation that a medium sized org can pull off. Currently, the average medium sized org in Star Citizen is approximately 332 people. This operation will consume fully one third of that number at 109 people and npc's to complete the set up. Of course, this is just theory crafting as everything is still in development at this point. Feel free to include any alterations and thinking behind it. I hope you found this as interesting as I did in creating it. Let's discuss! Talk to ya soon!

-Zarian

Pilot, Combat Ops

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I really like this! Not only is it solid theory-crafting but you seem to have addressed multiple concerns with your composition of forces.

One thing I noted in your linked post is that you were apart of the USAF. Are you drawing on any parts of your experiences there to conceptualize this theory crafting? As someone without military experience, I would've likely excluded something if I was to address this problem myself, like the Polaris rear guard. 

Can you also explain why you rely heavily on Hammerheads?

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1 hour ago, wfja said:

I really like this! Not only is it solid theory-crafting but you seem to have addressed multiple concerns with your composition of forces.

One thing I noted in your linked post is that you were apart of the USAF. Are you drawing on any parts of your experiences there to conceptualize this theory crafting? As someone without military experience, I would've likely excluded something if I was to address this problem myself, like the Polaris rear guard. 

Can you also explain why you rely heavily on Hammerheads?

First of all, thank you! Its always good to know that someone appreciates my methodology. And yes, most of this stratagem directly relates to my military experience. As I said in my original post, Security Forces NEVER fight alone, we role in packs! Often times in basic training, you'd see a lot of training units use the a wolf or Wolf pack symbology on their unit banners. This reinforces a "Team first" mantra that is common amongst most training squadrons and that ideology is constantly drilled into airmen, service wide.

Much like Security Forces, the Hammerhead is the backbone of any defensive force. And when utilized with skill, efficiency and teamwork, you can almost certainly create a modern day Phalanx similar to any ancient Greek army, most notably the Spartans. But with all great defenses, there's always a weak spot. What I tried to accomplish with this defense plan is to first figure out  strengths and weaknesses. Since I'm fully aware of my strengths in this formation, that requires less thought. So I had to really pick apart the Q&A to get a better sense of the ship's intended role. We know that it can shoot down torpedos, but it seriously lacks the ability to utiltize torps in its favor. There's speculation that we may be able to swap out the missile racks for torpedo launchers. Again, speculation,  nothing I've read from CIG states that possibility. So I'm going to go on what we know to this point.

So the basic idea is to cover its weakness as best I can with a sizable force, without it being overkill. In military convoys that I've been apart of, the command vehicle (or field commander) occupied a part of the convoy closer to the resource or near the end of the convoy. This is for two reasons. 

1st) It provided less exposure to mines, road-side bombs or I.E.D.'s (Improvised Explosive Devices). In most wars, the best and fastest way to win the war is to disable or destroy your enemy's command and control installations. If troops are blind and uninformed, they become undisciplined and fall into chaos.

2) Reaction to a surprise attack can be gauged better from afar and forces can be coordinated accordingly to the situation, instead of the command vehicle being struck and fighting for survival, then rushing out orders randomly.

So for this situation, I elected to place the field commander in a hardened ship that has reasonable sensor range and combat ability. Also, the hornet trackers can act as command and control  ships as well, if needed. So there's overlapping protection there in case the Polaris is disabled or destroyed.

Now, I really like the design of the Hammerhead and its defensive capabilities falls in line with the mindset I have as defense was at the core of most of my training. Going back to my military training, running in packs does a few things. 

1) Present a show of force. Giving the enemy pause against the sight of a sizable force will often make them rethink their target.

2) Perma-death will be a thing... So depending on how many strikes they already have will greatly determine if they want to put it all on the line for what MAY or may not be worth the trouble. 

3) It'll make them think, "if there's this many here, how many more are elsewhere?"  And with a combination of placing bounties and tracking them down for revenge, they'll be hard pressed to find a means of escape.

4) Cost effectiveness. You're getting more for less. An Idris or even multiple Polarii will be extremely expensive. While running two or three Hammerhead may equal the cost of one of its bigger brother/sister ships. Plus this configuration can be swapped out for more or less Hammerhead to fit a desired role. So there's flexibility too.

I'm sure there are more factors that I haven't included, but the point is, making it harder for the enemy to impose their will, will ultimately work in our favor as the success rate increases. And with that, greater reputation.

Overall, I see the Hammerhead as a wolf. Alone, it's incredibly vulnerable. But in packs, they will be a force to be reckoned with. 

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I like the theory crafting. My only question is what resource would having 109 people for one ship be worth it? Basically, if the orion would have say, a max of 15 crew, I feel like an escort of 2 retaliators with 4 light fighters or one hammerhead and 4 heavy fighters/light bombers and just multiple convoys would be more worth it as you would be able to stop 98% of threats (since the vast majority of times pirates are looking for easy prey). This means that WAY more material could be moved. Now formations like that would be useful for attacking hardened targets, but convoys are supposed to avoid them. Even if an idris was been preying on them, an idris pilot would be hesitant to attack a force with gladiators or retaliators and if they do attack it, whatever, 3 others made it through and the idris needs 10-24 hours of repairs, meaning more successful convoys. In addition, when one convoy is attacked, forces can be pulled off one to help another. 

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35 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

I like the theory crafting. My only question is what resource would having 109 people for one ship be worth it? Basically, if the orion would have say, a max of 15 crew, I feel like an escort of 2 retaliators with 4 light fighters or one hammerhead and 4 heavy fighters/light bombers and just multiple convoys would be more worth it as you would be able to stop 98% of threats (since the vast majority of times pirates are looking for easy prey). This means that WAY more material could be moved. Now formations like that would be useful for attacking hardened targets, but convoys are supposed to avoid them. Even if an idris was been preying on them, an idris pilot would be hesitant to attack a force with gladiators or retaliators and if they do attack it, whatever, 3 others made it through and the idris needs 10-24 hours of repairs, meaning more successful convoys. In addition, when one convoy is attacked, forces can be pulled off one to help another. 

This was just an example. I was limited to how many ships I could use to construct this theory. A force this large would be able to protect up to six or seven (not to exceed ten) Hull E's comfortably. When the game comes out, people are going to take it easy in the beginning until they get used to things. So I'll expect to see several small escorts from point A to B. As things progress, I fully expect to see much larger convoys spanning multiple destinations and checkpoints along the way. And again, the running cost of a Hammerhead will be much lower than that of an Idris or Polaris, so you can get more for less. The flexibility this ship provides will be invaluable. 

Also, people will spend their credits on whatever they deem necessary. If an org has the money and is willing to pay for the protection of one ship to this extreme, who am I to reject them? Some people wouldn't mind paying for an idea. Please remind me, how much has CIG raised over the course of this project? 😂 I see no reason why people's spending habits will change in game.

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It never hurts to also plan ahead in terms of force projection and suitable escorts. As time progresses raiding and interdiction parties will only get more proficient and begin to use more advanced weaponry/differing raiding compositions. If you plan to overkill from the start, even if it's a slight bit unnecessary, then you'll always have the home-field advantage when facing a stronger foe. This is especially important when defending critical elements of the fleet.

Good work on the theory crafting!

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4 hours ago, SylasTG said:

It never hurts to also plan ahead in terms of force projection and suitable escorts. As time progresses raiding and interdiction parties will only get more proficient and begin to use more advanced weaponry/differing raiding compositions. If you plan to overkill from the start, even if it's a slight bit unnecessary, then you'll always have the home-field advantage when facing a stronger foe. This is especially important when defending critical elements of the fleet.

Good work on the theory crafting!

 Agreed and thank you. I always try to err I the side of caution and bring a little bit extra. Tis better to have and not need, than to need and not have. My only concern would be how economics will truly work in the Star Citizen world. Granted, everything is still being fleshed out, I just hope they don't water it down so it'll be harder to turn a profit. 

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to me that's too much firepower for the asset to protect.

 

if the pirates don't steal the resources, the mining operation would likely make no money anyway in the end paying for such a protection, although there might even be no threat in the end.

 

i'd rather :

* rely heavily on scouts to secure the waypoints.

* have enough forces to stabilize the battlefront while waiting for the reinforcements, in case some hostile fleet joins the party.

 

 

Now let's assume the ressources we have to protect are worthing such a defensive fleet, the offensive fleet would be informed, and the guys would not be wannabe pirates...

their assets would be at least matching the defensive power if not more. Your setup is not tailored for a battle of 2 fleets with equal firepower. it is designed to be a deterant.

 

I would really not go that way of the "brute force".

i'd play smarter, with heavy intelligence and planning ahead + lighter forces for immediate protection + forces ready to scramble if needed.

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14 hours ago, Amy Babe said:

to me that's too much firepower for the asset to protect.

 

if the pirates don't steal the resources, the mining operation would likely make no money anyway in the end paying for such a protection, although there might even be no threat in the end.

 

i'd rather :

* rely heavily on scouts to secure the waypoints.

* have enough forces to stabilize the battlefront while waiting for the reinforcements, in case some hostile fleet joins the party.

 

 

Now let's assume the ressources we have to protect are worthing such a defensive fleet, the offensive fleet would be informed, and the guys would not be wannabe pirates...

their assets would be at least matching the defensive power if not more. Your setup is not tailored for a battle of 2 fleets with equal firepower. it is designed to be a deterant.

 

I would really not go that way of the "brute force".

i'd play smarter, with heavy intelligence and planning ahead + lighter forces for immediate protection + forces ready to scramble if needed.

The threat of the use of force is always the main deterrent. There ideal objective would be to complete an escort without having to use force to do so. Your analysis would preclude that the enemy is aware of our actions and is coordinated enough to have reserves on standby. While scouting in advance is important, your analysis is missing one element that is very important. In the scenerio, I did state this force was assembled last minute. How can the enemy have the ability to scout us with little to no advanced warning before operations commence? They would need to know our composition, route, destination, possible waypoints and refueling needs among other factors to be able to launch an effective assault. 

Crossing paths with a large pirate group enroute by chance is one thing, but for a group to be able to scout, plan, coordinate and successfully gain an advantage... all on short notice is a bit of a reach. The largest pirate org that I'm aware of is around one thousand members in number while Imperium is nearly five thousand members strong. We have to account for real world schedules and time zones which I'm sure Imperium can cover relatively better than the aforementioned pirate org.

We also have other factors such as client budget. If they can only afford the help of a single fighter squadron, we won't commit a gunship force. While brute for is a luxury, not all clients can afford it. While brute force is preferable, it often comes with a higher cost. So there are factors to consider when crafting fleet compositions. 

 

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Your main assumption is that "the ennemy does not know"

if he does know somehow (someone talks too much, ... spies or whatever you are screwed) and your losses will be quite heavy.

 

When you plan large operations such as the one you mention here you MUST assume that your opponent knows and you MUST expect the worst case at the risk of losing everything.

i'm surprised you talk about your military experience and still "hope" for your opponent to make mistakes, or assume that "largest pirate org will not match us...

" the bad general goes to war and dreams of victory, the good general goes to war and has already won". Sun Tzu

This is critically dangerous way of thinking! I have never managed my squadron like this IRL, and never i'll manage it this way in this game.

 

If the ennemy really does not know:

* you need to act quick before he can organize himself. 

In addition to that, you need to be realistic, in a videogame there is no way you can organize a 110+ people operation assembled at the last minute.

This needs advanced planning and therefore you increase your risks to have your ennemy hear about it.

* Go quick? scout and go light, while your convoy try to sneak, make your best to have backup ready to scramble.

 

Moreover, If your ennemy really does not know, why would you need a 110+ combat group? what kind of ennemy force and setup do you fear exactly?

it sounds to me that your battlegroup is built to fight an organized force including bombers and capital ships... In this case your scenario will likely be a failure since you'll engage your own forces in a heavy fight without knowing your opponent setup, AND he will have the alpha strike + surprise effect.

 

 

 

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The assumptions you've stated in your response outline "exactly" the reason why a force/fleet must always be prepared and at maximum capacity, if able. There is no "hoping" the enemy makes a mistake in warfare and I dare to say that we did not assume in anyway that we "hoped" for an outcome. In warfare there is only absolutes, you win or you lose the engagement and how do you do this?

By being as prepared as possible to face the enemy under normal circumstances and to an extent even severe circumstances. That's why we have First Responders, Crisis Teams, and Specialized Divisions that cater to that "extreme" scenario. I see where your concerns come from but if you limit the extent of what can and can't be utilized then you are intentionally handicapping yourself or the fleet overall.

Combat/Warfare is legitimate Fog of War where the answers are always unknown, the next move of your enemy can only be "predicted". Why do you think the United States of America overkills into it's Military Budget? It's partly for reasons I'd rather not state but also because it is IMPERATIVE that your fighting forces are ALWAYS at the top of their food chain. Light Escort Compositions, Medium/Large, whatever the necessity or mission demands it must be met with an ideal or even somewhat more than necessary response.

 

If you come prepared you succeed, if you give the enemy even an inch to breathe then you lose.

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1 hour ago, Amy Babe said:

Your main assumption is that "the ennemy does not know"

if he does know somehow (someone talks too much, ... spies or whatever you are screwed) and your losses will be quite heavy.

 

When you plan large operations such as the one you mention here you MUST assume that your opponent knows and you MUST expect the worst case at the risk of losing everything.

i'm surprised you talk about your military experience and still "hope" for your opponent to make mistakes, or assume that "largest pirate org will not match us...

" the bad general goes to war and dreams of victory, the good general goes to war and has already won". Sun Tzu

This is critically dangerous way of thinking! I have never managed my squadron like this IRL, and never i'll manage it this way in this game.

 

If the ennemy really does not know:

* you need to act quick before he can organize himself. 

In addition to that, you need to be realistic, in a videogame there is no way you can organize a 110+ people operation assembled at the last minute.

This needs advanced planning and therefore you increase your risks to have your ennemy hear about it.

* Go quick? scout and go light, while your convoy try to sneak, make your best to have backup ready to scramble.

 

Moreover, If your ennemy really does not know, why would you need a 110+ combat group? what kind of ennemy force and setup do you fear exactly?

it sounds to me that your battlegroup is built to fight an organized force including bombers and capital ships... In this case your scenario will likely be a failure since you'll engage your own forces in a heavy fight without knowing your opponent setup, AND he will have the alpha strike + surprise effect.

 

 

 

Let's lead with this, how many games have you played that currently have the ambitious scale that Star Citizen is planning to implement? If none, how can you be sure that we couldn't organize 100+ members at any one time? I've never seen any game have (or plan to have) all of its backers on a  single server. This is a mechanic unknown to the gaming world to this point. So to assume that a fleet of 5k+ members couldn't mobilize 100 people at a moments notice is folly. Please keep in mind that this is simply theory craft, not fact. Mentioning my military experience is only meant to provide support to back the theory craft. 

While Sun Zsu was a very capable commander, he didn't have six degrees of freedom. SC is set almost 1,000 years in the future. While some philosophies may still ring true, an adaptation for new technologies and strategies will be the only way to win a large scale battle. As far as assuming the enemy doesn't know, that's a falsehood. When I'm looking at a situation, I look at alternative methods to counter it. Just because it's not posted here, doesn't mean it hasn't been considered. I know my theory crafting can drag on so I try to keep it concise as possible. 

Suppose you're right and a potential enemy knows my plans. Ultimately, it's up to them to execute. I've already got my plan in place. So I go into the situation knowing that, as you've quoted, I "have gone to war knowing that I've won". The onus is on you, as the aggressor, to prove me wrong. I'll take the Spartan approach. Lock you into a narrow pass, where your numbers will count for nothing and force you to use "brute force" against my phalanx. 

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Also, lets not forget any budgetary concerns. If an Aurora pilot wants an escort through a very dangerous part of space, but can only afford a light fighter escort, are you going work within their budgetary constraints or are you going to commit a massive force, to which the pay will be minimal for all parties involved? That wouldn't make any economical sense. If the customer's account can afford it, I would commit all that I can within those guidelines. But I refuse to give more than they can afford. IF my force is overmatched and overpowered, that's one thing. I'll plan better the next time around. But if this mission is completed without any issues and nothing happens AND my force gets minimum pay, if any... I'm losing on two fronts. Not to mention the running costs for each ship. My battle plan will always be taylored to the situation. Brute force is nice, but not always warranted.

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ourmilitary  academies and real life military experiences must have been very different to reach such different solutions.

In france we can't afford the overkill strategy, because we more than often miss assets and we go with the "as less as possible'.

(btw From what i have seen the US forces have more or less the same issue :D).

When i had to organize operations, i had to do with the as less expensive as possible to ensure everyone comes back home safe and mission being a success. This is what i'll try to achieve in Star citizen. Of course if we forget about the economical constraints, i'll bring in a bengal to fight a bunch of  cutlasses .

 

there will be no winner in this discussion, i'd better stop here.  there are different ways to organize an operation, you have exposed yours, i have exposed mine, we agree that we disagree. period.

 

both of us are veterans, cheers mate

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A good healthy debate from differing viewpoints is a luxury nowadays. When it comes to stuff we're all capable in, myself included as a Former 94H in the US Army, we do our best to give our opinion based on our own experiences of how it worked best. I like seeing different viewpoints on this particularly because no matter what any of us has said in this topic we're all absolutely correct with our approach.

 

Good to know there's fellow Vets as well :)

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With the amount of force you've proposed, why would anyone even bother attacking? What could possibly be so valuable as to justify the risk? And if there is something so valuable, why not just take more Orions? Less time in the mission area means that its safer for all involved.

There is always a third option. Leave. In the situation described I see no way how raw resources mined by an Orion can sustain such force, nor would this actually engage the vast majority of players in 'fun' gameplay. Zooming around asteroids is fun for like, five minutes. Sitting in a turret is never enjoyable. The game actually has to be appealing for people to want to engage in fleet missions. Coming home from work and spending four hours in a Hammerhead or fighter just on the rare chance a massive pirate fleet will appear is...not fun, nor engaging, or attractive, nor profitable. 

 

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4 minutes ago, SylasTG said:

A good healthy debate from differing viewpoints is a luxury nowadays. When it comes to stuff we're all capable in, myself included as a Former 94H in the US Army, we do our best to give our opinion based on our own experiences of how it worked best. I like seeing different viewpoints on this particularly because no matter what any of us has said in this topic we're all absolutely correct with our approach.

 

Good to know there's fellow Vets as well :)

there is absolutely no problem, we have right to disagree and i did not take bad anything people have said here.

 

i think the zarian's arguments were just not realistic in the frame of real world, but could be valid in the frame of a video game.

Imperium fleet is k+ people: OK but all around the world, not all connected at the same time. not everybody is part of the military

not everybody of the online mlilitary people will be last minute operation, nor will be in the space sector...

 

Everything smells the schedule ahead operation, I don't want to be picky on everylittle details, therefore i drop the ball here and prefer to stop the debate now :) our different approaches have been exposed, I will not convince you, you will not convince me, i don't see what more i could say :)

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29 minutes ago, Amy Babe said:

Everything smells the schedule ahead operation, I don't want to be picky on everylittle details, therefore i drop the ball here and prefer to stop the debate now :) our different approaches have been exposed, I will not convince you, you will not convince me, i don't see what more i could say :)

No need to convince anyone as all approaches are suitable to meet the enemy in combat. The point is that preparing ahead of time is the right way to counteract the enemy force, even if you do not know the composition of the enemy at the time. Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance, words to live by. ;)

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Cost Vs Reward

All ships require maintenance, ammo, fuel and food and all people whether npc or players require money.

The more ships you have as security means the less cash you can have or even negative cash flow. Every org operates as a company, the operate to make much in the most efficient way.

That is a joke fleet really. In true battles, it will be complete different on several points.

 

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50 cents to the discussion : 

If I sum up : you propose to gather on short notice a force of : 

1 Polaris

7 hammerhead

2 retaliators

2 Terapin

4 Sabre

4 Super Hornet

4 Gladiators

 

So a total of 24 ships and 110 players.

Let's not forget the guys we are supposed to escort ^^

 

It's more a like a 8th Air Force Raid en route to Berlin than a merchant escort ^^

So without taking real life argument. 

1) Your 8 light fighters will limit you to short range escort, so you will have to either drop them, either add a starfarer to refuel them

2) The ship size will limit you to medium and big jump point, we may require longer to rendez vous with the ships you are supposed to escort

3) You immobilize a formidable power for one single operation, this is the doctrine of static defense : you allocate ressources dedicated to one specific task, those ressources cannot be used elsewhere

4) The actual operation doctrine is rather to pool ressource and allocate them on request : I rejoin Amy Babe on this one, you should rather use a small screen of fighter and keep a good reserve ... just in case

5) Your formation does not take into account spares : from my little experience of officer in a virtual squadron we have around 25% to 30% of loss before the mission start, this is either due to computer crash, last minute unavailability, ship malfunction, mid air collision, ... So to gather in game all the requested ships you should count on 20 to 30 additionnal players

6) availability of all peoples all along the run, given all the time zone in Imperium, it is difficult to keep a lot of player over a long period of time : so your huge formation will certainly suffer attrition along the time, this will limit you to a quite short mission time, maybe 1H or 1H30, but certainly not a 3H run. 

7) Mission preparation : from my little experience you will have to take the IRL C2 ressource, how many team speack channel do you think this operation will require ... I personnaly bet on someting like 14 channels ... for 110 people this is quite reasonable with an average of 8 to 9 people per channel... when you talk about allocating so much channels, prepare the binding/ whispers, you talk about a preparation time of something like 15 to 30mn (without taking into account the briefing time)

8) Ship preparation : you are assuming that you have 24 ships ready to go, with fuel, weapons, in neighbour systems ... I will rather count on a good hour of travel to get everybody at the same place ready to go

9) availability of people : okay let's assume that you just found 110 people at the same place, on the same time slot, ready to go ... how many officers do you thing you will need ... I will go with 14 officers ... so you need 14 well trained people, maybe with a minimal level of certification ... this will be your bottleneck in terms of human ressources here

11) I think you are a little bit overestimating Imperium power, I wouldn't quote Sun Tzu and his recommandation to known our own strenght and weakness before planing an operation, but I would recommend you to get a look at the Imperium year in review where we have a summary of our regular military forces ... 

https://www.imperium.sc/operations/

Please don't quote the exact figures as they are sensitives and that we are in a public place of the forum

Moreover just get a look at the next game day to get an idea of the average amount of people avaible simultaneously :)

Then take only a third of this figure to get an idea of how many people a single "standard" operation should require ;)

12) If I were supposed to mount such an escort operation (and trust me this is a kind of speciality for me), I would rather go for long range robust fighters belonging to a single unit ... but I will certainly be forced to take what I have at the moment ... so everything able to reach the rally point and with sufficient range will do the job. 

Those fighters will not be sent at once, a first batch of 4 fighter for close escort will act as screen,

And I will simply send a batch of 12 fighters in training nearby to be available for immediate reinforcement in case of ennemy contact... 

The goal will not be to destroy the ennemies, but simply to make contact with them and force them to engage with the escort fighters while the convoy head for the next waypoint. 

 

 

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13) On a more historical approach (that will please C. Roberts), here is the escort ratio for a famous 8th Air Force Raid on Berlin (6 March 1944, described in "le fana de l'aviation Hors Série n°20")

Bombers to escort : 814 (only 702 on target)

Fighter escort : 943 (only 832 available) divided in three groups (En route, On target, trip back)

 

So Only 315 escort fighter planned for 814 bombers ... 30% of the total amount of plane ... now it terms of peoples : 10 guys per bomber and one per fighter : the human ressources for the escort represent only 4% of the peoples to escort

The attrition for the escort was 12%

The ennemy force was 1000 fighters and theire was 70 bombers destroyed ... 9% of the total amount ... 

 

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Just to chim in on your point about "availability of players" at any given time. In Black Desert Online I was an Officer in a very successful 300-400 man guild called WarriorPoets. If you know anything about Black Desert you know that at any moment the world bosses would spawn and would require the guilds resources to attack and gain the most loot from, these are world events so anyone and any other guilds could also participate, in these zones it was also a free for all PvP gankfest if any guilds chose to do so. 

Our time to prep, which included gathering potions, food, mounts, repairing gear and/or acquiring new gear before/during the call for the boss was around 10-15 minutes. And this was for a force of 100-150 WarriorPoets who were eager to swamp the world boss and claim it for our own Guild. Mind you, all we had were 400 members, tops. 1/4th of those were Traders/Crafters who didn't want to fight and preferred the PvE element of the game.

We never had any issue communicating via TeamSpeak as long as we used moderated channels or talk privileges (This wasn't the best way to handle it but it worked, discipline played a factor here). We were able to down the World Bosses, and if needed even fight off rogue elements or other guilds who were in the way, and probably suffered 3-5% casualties overall on most runs. We would then take this same group, still cohesive after the first world boss, and go on to do some of the minor spawns that would come up after the major world boss.

This was also the same case in Guild vs Guild. I was privileged enough to be given the GM Position of Guild 3, which meant I was responsible for 99 other WarriorPoets at all times. During GvG it wasn't hard to assemble the fighting force we needed to meet any opponent, unless it demanded more than 60-70 people which meant we would require the other guilds to assist. It never took very long to get every in the same TS3 channel and ready for the fighting and it was never hard to keep them together either.

We were able to do this many times, over and over, for months before the Guild went the way of the ancients.

The reason I'm giving this example is because this was capable and easily accomplished with 400 members total, we have 'roughly' 5,000 in Imperium (Going by Total Member Count). Although many are inactive or waiting for the release of Star Citizen proper, this still means a good majority may return so we wouldn't have to worry about the "numbers" involved.

Fleet Compositions are fluid and can be realistically changed to suit any need of the Org. Although having a good and solid composition to field that isn't too expensive or out of proportion/cumbersome is probably ideal.

As for logistics and economics involved? That's definitely a great point, an Army/Fleet can only go so far before its crippled by that. For that I'll leave it up to the brains who can do the maths on that. :)

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3 minutes ago, SylasTG said:

Just to chim in on your point about "availability of players" at any given time. In Black Desert Online I was an Officer in a very successful 300-400 man guild called WarriorPoets. If you know anything about Black Desert you know that at any moment the world bosses would spawn and would require the guilds resources to attack and gain the most loot from, these are world events so anyone and any other guilds could also participate, in these zones it was also a free for all PvP gankfest if any guilds chose to do so. 

Our time to prep, which included gathering potions, food, mounts, repairing gear and/or acquiring new gear before/during the call for the boss was around 10-15 minutes. And this was for a force of 100-150 WarriorPoets who were eager to swamp the world boss and claim it for our own Guild. Mind you, all we had were 400 members, tops. 1/4th of those were Traders/Crafters who didn't want to fight and preferred the PvE element of the game.

We never had any issue communicating via TeamSpeak as long as we used moderated channels or talk privileges (This wasn't the best way to handle it but it worked, discipline played a factor here). We were able to down the World Bosses, and if needed even fight off rogue elements or other guilds who were in the way, and probably suffered 3-5% casualties overall on most runs. We would then take this same group, still cohesive after the first world boss, and go on to do some of the minor spawns that would come up after the major world boss.

This was also the same case in Guild vs Guild. I was privileged enough to be given the GM Position of Guild 3, which meant I was responsible for 99 other WarriorPoets at all times. During GvG it wasn't hard to assemble the fighting force we needed to meet any opponent, unless it demanded more than 60-70 people which meant we would require the other guilds to assist. It never took very long to get every in the same TS3 channel and ready for the fighting and it was never hard to keep them together either.

We were able to do this many times, over and over, for months before the Guild went the way of the ancients.

The reason I'm giving this example is because this was capable and easily accomplished with 400 members total, we have 5,000 in Imperium. Although many are inactive or waiting for the release of Star Citizen proper, this still means a good majority may return so we wouldn't have to worry about the "numbers" involved. As for logistics and economics involved? That's definitely a great point, an Army/Fleet can only go so far before its crippled by that. For that I'll leave it up to the brains who can do the maths on that. :)

Very interesting figure of availability ratio, what was the average age in your guild ? Was it an international guild splitted over multiple time zone ? 
 

I had similar availability ratio in a guildwar guild, but it was quite a young public with an average age of 17 and only one nationality. 

I suspect older public to be a little less available than a younger one (for example in my squadron we have an average age of 30-33 with an availability around 25%)

But we seem to converge toward a figure around 30-35% of availability :)

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Quote

Very interesting figure of availability ratio, what was the average age in your guild ? Was it an international guild splitted over multiple time zone ? 
 

I had similar availability ratio in a guildwar guild, but it was quite a young public with an average age of 17 and only one nationality. 

I suspect older public to be a little less available than a younger one (for example in my squadron we have an average age of 30-33 with an availability around 25%)

But we seem to converge toward a figure around 30-35% of availability :)

 

I think it was a combination of genuine love of the game and it's mechanics and the freshness of it being a newly released game to North America at the time. Majority of the players in WarriorPoets were NA but we had about 10-15% who were from the UK and a smaller portion from AUS. We were strictly 18+ at the time and the average age was probably in the early 20's. So people definitely had the spare time to play with if they weren't working or with family, etc.

I think we managed roughly 55-60% availability overall when it came to major guild events or GvG/Sieges. 

Guild Wars was also a favorite game of mine by the way ;)

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On ‎06‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:38 PM, Zarian said:

Hello Everyone,

          I hope everyone enjoyed the holiday and an even better new year. Just after the release of the Hammerhead during the 2017 Anniversary sale, I wrote about the uses of the Hammerhead and its practical uses in escort operations. For any who are curious, follow the link below.
 

 

Today's post is to follow up and give further examination and detail of how essential this ship will be when operating in escort and fleet operations. Please keep in mind that scenarios, such as this, are only possible assuming CIG is able to achieve the goal of having all players in a single server.

Now lets reset the scene: We have established a new contract with a mining org and they are willing to pay much coin to ensure their shipments aren't jacked by pirates or worse. In the past, they been robbed by coordinated pirate groups flying Cutlass Blacks, Buccaneers and Caterpillars. They even claim to have barely escaped an Idris in a recent shipment. Armed with this knowledge, we prepare what forces we have available for a short notice escort.

 

tactical-plan.thumb.png.58a9648e7952451c07b43d64d4f4063c.png

Please excuse the misrepresentation as the website has yet to be updated. (http://u-tec.yefec.com) In my previous post, I spoke about how I initially purchased six Hammerheads. Since that post, I now own eight and a Polaris to round out the bigger ships in my hangar. (And yes, I'd be willing to lend them out for fleet ops) In the picture above is an example of a layered defense, incorporating multiple craft in a coordinated effort. 

 

At the Center of image, we have the resource that we're tasked with protecting, represented by an Orion Mining ship. The ship immediately to the right and left, will be Hammerhead Gunships (represented by Polarii) Those two ships will provide close-in support/protection for the resource while providing a final denial line against incoming threats. The four smaller ships around the Orion are a flight of F7C-M Super Hornets. They provide added support to the Close-in sentry ships, but stay with the resource at all times in the event the sentry ship have to pull away to attack a larger threat.

Just behind the aforementioned group of ship will be a pair of Retaliator Heavy Bombers. This bomber presence will help with dealing with larger, more lethal targets that may prove difficult for the Hammerhead force to contend with. As the Retaliator also has two manned turrets, they can assist with anti-fighter defense if they are not dispatched to deal a higher priority target. In between the two Tali's is Terrapin (or Hornet Tracker). This seemed to be a logical choice due to the advanced sensor package both of these ships come with. The Hornet Tracker, in particular, has been described as having Command and Control capabilities for fighter force. This position would be ideal to scan long range to pick up an enemy force approaching. Though we don't know the extent of how scanning will work, Chris Roberts has already said in a 10 for the Chairman that stealth ships would be difficult to detect due to their low emission output. He went on to say that dedicated scanning ships, (such as the Tracker) would be able to detect stealth ships through a variety of methods, including "cross-section scanning and a weapons lock early warning system". That last part is particularly interesting as an early warning system is something we don't currently have in-game and its that type of system that could be the middle ground between stealth and scanning ships... but I digress.

The ship at the very bottom of the image, in the center, is a Polaris. This will be the Command and Control ship, able to bring more torpedoes to the fight and handle larger targets while providing refuel and rearming services to the fighter force (what size ship exactly, we don't know since its still in development). With its larger radar, it may provide added range and detection abilities needed to effective in combat scenarios. 

On both sides of the Polaris are a flight of Gladii. Their speed and agility could prove extremely useful if they are deployed to take on Eclipse Stealth Bombers, IF an early warning detection system utilized by the Hornet Tracker can detect them quickly enough at range. These Gladii will be the workhorse of the unit, being deployed to attack targets and hold enemies at bay until reinforcement arrive.

The surrounding five surrounding ships, represented by Polarii, are Hammerheads as well. Their weapon loadout will be staged for a more ranged attack. So I've decided to run M6A Laser Cannons on those. *Explanation in the above link*

At the front of the formation, on either side of the lead Hammerhead, are a flight of four Sabres. They have a dual role. 1st) Mop up any targets in the immediate area and assist the Gladii force in tracking down and killing targets. 2) They will provide reinforcement of the forward scouting force, located at the top of the image. Only the Field Commander can authorize their detachment from the main force to assist the scouts. Caution must me used as deploying them so far away from the main force could be a lure to soften up defenses, even if its minimally. 

Finally, but definitely not least, the forward scout force (top of image). Their whole job is perhaps the most important of any. They are required to scout far ahead of the main force to gather intel and seek out any potential threats to the mission. At its core is a Terrapin, which can be swapped out for a Hornet Tracker. Either ship will do in this case as both will be well suited to handle detection processes. I would probably opt for the Terrapin though, due to its hardened shell of hull. It'll be able to take a lot of damage if a trap is sprung. As its escorts, the Terrapin will be accompanied by a flight of four Vanguard Wardens. With their extended range, and hull durability, it only seemed like the ideal selection for long range operations. 

 

This is an operation that a medium sized org can pull off. Currently, the average medium sized org in Star Citizen is approximately 332 people. This operation will consume fully one third of that number at 109 people and npc's to complete the set up. Of course, this is just theory crafting as everything is still in development at this point. Feel free to include any alterations and thinking behind it. I hope you found this as interesting as I did in creating it. Let's discuss! Talk to ya soon!

-Zarian

Pilot, Combat Ops

Hi, That a good well thought out post. I would change a couple things if i was going to do that fleet.

1) I would have the Polaris at the front of the fleet. As most of it weapons are forward facing. And it only have two rear turrets with what looks like limited field of view with them. Also has capital radar that might help spotting ships moving to intercept you.  

2) I would replace the Polaris at the rear of the fleet with a hammerhead. As more of the turrets can face to the rear if needed. 

3) Instead of having the Hammerhead ever side of the Orion. I have one above and one below the Orion. Also have the top of the Hammerhead facing away from the Orion. To give the Hammerhead top turret a better field of view. The idea of putting the Hammerheads above and below the Orion, it might give them a better field of view for all the turrets as the Orion wont be in the way. 

4) As for the scout force i would change two of the Wardens for Harbingers. Should have close, if not the same range. Might be a little slower, but don't see that being a huge problem. But has torpedoes if needed to come back to help the main fleet deal with larger targets. 

5) This Is just a extra one that might work, might not. But we have to wait to hear more about the ship. Swopping out some of the Sabre or Gladius for Defender. As they did say it had longer range than the other two fighter, so might help with having to refueling less ships. But that also down to how long the mission is and if they have the range to do it with out refueling.

6) I would think about changing out the retaliators for a Polaris. To also help with refueling, because this will let you do two ships at the same time. Also give you a back up if something happens to the first Polaris. If that damage or just component breaking and it having to leave. 

But would you think of them changes, It would be good to hear what you think. 

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      Transactions through PayPal (Verified PayPal only). All prices are final (includes PayPal fees). If you are interested - leave a comment here and send me private message with: Ship or Package name, your PayPal email also your corresponding RSI handle. I will send an invoice for payment via PayPal. Item will be delivered to buyer's PayPal email address after payment has cleared. No returns or refund as the gifting system only allows a 1 time gifting and it will be account bound to the buyer's account (your payment will be refunded if I cannot deliver your item for any reason). If you are unsure about the item or have any questions, feel free to ask. You must own a copy of Star Citizen, and are required to have an account in order to accept item (ship/upgrade). Item will be delivered to the buyer's PayPal email address. You can claim the item by clicking on the link provided in the email about "gift"  and sign in your RSI account. Be careful to be logged into the correct RSI account when you redeem your email about "gift" containing the transmitted ship/upgrade. Tracking is provided by "Hangar Log" on RSI website and will be used as a proof of delivery. Prices are not negotiable.  I may have more than one of the items listed. If you are interested in more than one, please PM and I'll let you know how many I have.   
       
      NOTE: Please understand I do have a full-time job which requires I travel around the world and I'm often working the backside of the clock. If you send me a PM, please be patient and know I will respond as soon as I can. I can gift you the item only as fast as you respond to the invoice and the PayPal payment clears. Please be assured I've not forgotten you. Often it's just that I may be asleep or working where I may not have internet. For those contacting me thinking I'm a broker, sorry, but I'm not. I only share what is in my own personal inventory. Some of my inventory here has been melted, which allows me to gift it to you after I buy it back. 
       
       
       
      SHIP/ITEM Melt Value INCLUDES: PRICE - Includes PayPal:         STANDALONE SHIPS       - AEGIS DYNAMICS       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Aegis Avenger Titan Renegade - LTI $75 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $104 Aegis Avenger Warlock - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   - Standalone Ship - Aegis Eclipse - LTI $275 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $333 Standalone Ship - Aegis Gladius Valiant - LTI $110 LTI, Poster, Model, Aeroview Hangar $139 Standalone Ship - Aegis Hammerhead - LTI $650 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $759 Standalone Ship - Aegis Reclaimer - LTI $350 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $440 Aegis Redeemer - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) - - - Aegis Retaliator Bomber - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   - Standalone Ship - Aegis Sabre - LTI $170 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $225 Standalone Ship - Aegis (Original Warden) Vanguard - LTI $250 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $325 Standalone Ship - Aegis Vanguard Hoplite - LTI $225 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $320 Standalone Ship - Aegis Vanguard Sentinel - LTI $265 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $340 Standalone Ship - Aegis Vulcan LTI $200 LTI, SelfLand Hangar $237         - ANVIL AEROSPACE       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Anvil Carrack - LTI $350 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $463 Standalone Ship - Anvil Crucible - LTI $350 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $430 Standalone Ship - Anvil F7C Hornet Wildfire - LTI $175 LTI, Poster, Model, Aeroview Hangar $221 Standalone Ship - Anvil Hawk - LTI $90 LTI, Poster, Model, Revel & York Hangar $124 Standalone Ship - Anvil Hurricane - LTI $175 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $205 Standalone Ship - Anvil Terrapin - LTI $195 LTI, Poster, Model, Aeroview Hangar $265         - AOPOA       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       AOPOA NOX - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   -         - ARGO ASTRONAUTICS       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       - Please check back soon -               - BANU       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Banu Defender - LTI $185 LTI, Poster, Model, Aeroview Hangar $222         - CONSOLIDATED OUTLAND       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Consolidated Outland Pioneer - LTI - Warbond VIP $750 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, UEE Land Claim license Estate Parcel, Outpost Construction Material, Estate Planetary Beacon $1,030 Standalone Ship - Consolidated Outland Pioneer - LTI $850 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, UEE Land Claim license Estate Parcel, Outpost Construction Material, Estate Planetary Beacon $1,030         - CRUSADER INDUSTRIES       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       - Please check back soon -               - DRAKE INTERPLANETARY       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Drake Buccaneer - LTI $110 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $135 Drake Dragonfly Black - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   - Standalone Ship - Drake Dragonfly Yellowjacket - LTI $35 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $67 Standalone Ship - Drake Herald - LTI $85 LTI, Poster, Model, Aeroview Hangar $130         - ESPERIA       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Esperia Prowler - LTI $425 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $505 Standalone Ship - Esperia Vanduul Blade - LTI $250 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $299         - KRUGER INTERGALACTIC       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       - Please check back soon -               - MISC (MUSASHI INDUSTRIAL & STARFLIGHT CONCERN)       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - MISC Endeavor Hope-Class - LTI $450 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, Endeavor Landing (2x1), Endeavor Medical Bay (2x2) $650 Standalone Ship - MISC Hull D - LTI $350 LTI, Poster, Model $410 Standalone Ship - MISC Prospector - LTI $140 LTI, Poster, Model, Aeroview Hangar $178 Standalone Ship - MISC Razor - LTI - Warbond Edition $120 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $165 Standalone Ship - MISC Razor - LTI $135 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $165 MISC Starfarer - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   - Standalone Ship - MISC Starfarer Gemini - LTI $240 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $350         (OTHER INSURANCE)       Standalone Ship - MISC Endeavor Anniversary 2017 $350 60 Month Insurance, VFG Industrial Hangar $400         - ORIGIN JUMPWORKS GmbH       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - Origin 600I Exploration Edition - LTI - (Origin Rover, Name Reservation) Warbond Edition $400 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, Origin Rover, 600i Name Reservation $565 Standalone Ship - Origin 600I Luxury Edition - LTI - (Name Reservation) Warbond Edition $375 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, 600i Name Reservation $540 Standalone Ship - Origin 600I Exploration Edition - LTI (Origin Rover) $435 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, Origin Rover $555 Standalone Ship - Origin 600I Luxury Edition - LTI $400 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $530 Standalone Ship - Origin 890 JUMP - LTI $600 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar, Revel & York Hangar $1,220 Origin X-1 - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   -         (OTHER INSURANCE)       Standalone Ship - Origin 890 Jump - Anniversary 2016 $890 48 month insurance (4 Year), VFG Industrial Hangar $1,030         - RSI - ROBERTS SPACE INDUSTRIES       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Standalone Ship - RSI Polaris - LTI $750 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $874         (OTHER INSURANCE)       Standalone Ship - RSI Constellation Phoenix - Anniversary 2015 $350 3 Years Insurance, Revel & York Hangar $430         - TUMBRIL       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Tumbril Cyclone - LTI (See packages/add-ons below) -   - Standalone Ship - Tumbril Nova Tank - LTI $105 LTI, Poster, Model, Box, SelfLand Hangar $130                 PACKAGES & ADD-ONS       (LIFETIME INSURANCE - LTI)       Package - Aegis Redeemer - LTI (Game Package) $265 LTI, Poster, Model, Revel & York Hangar, 5000 UEC, Game Soundtrack, Digital Star Map, Digital SC Manual, Digital Squadron 42 Manual, SC Download, Squadron 42 Download $409 Add-Ons - Aegis Wrecking Crew Pack - LTI (Vulcan, Reclaimer, Warlock, Eclipse, Titan) $950 LTI, VFG Industrial Hangar $1,220 Add-Ons - Air And Space Pack - LTI (Terrapin, Cyclone AA) $250 LTI, Poster, Model $322 Add-Ons - All Terrain Vehicle Mega Pack - LTI (Tumbril Cyclone, AA, RN, RC, TR, Ursa Rover, Greycat PTV) $405 LTI, Poster, Model, RSI Lynx Rover, Greycat PTV $515 Add-Ons - AOPOA Nox 2 Pack - LTI (Nox, Nox Kue) $75 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $104 Add-Ons - AOPOA Nox 5 Pack - LTI (Nox Kue, 5 x Nox) $180 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $236 Add-Ons - AOPOA Nox 5 Pack - LTI (Nox Kue, 5 x Nox) - Warbond $145 LTI, Poster, Model, SelfLand Hangar $236 Add-Ons - Offroad Vehicle Pack - LTI (Tumbril Cyclone TR, Ursa Rover, Greycat PTV) $110 LTI, Poster, Model, Greycat PTV $145 Add-Ons - Race Team Pack - LTI (Origin X1, Dragonfly Black, Nox) $115 LTI, Origin X1 Poster, Origin X1 Model, Aeroview Hangar $149 Add-Ons - Top Secret Bomber Pack - LTI (Aegis Eclipse, Anvil Gladiator, Aegis Retaliator Bomber) $670 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $790 Add-Ons - Tumbril Cyclone Pack - LTI (Tumbril Cyclone, AA, RN, RC, TR) $255 LTI, Poster, Model $312 Add-Ons - Starfarer + Nox 2 pack - LTI (MISC Starfarer, AOPOA Nox & Nox Kue) $365 LTI, Poster, Model, VFG Industrial Hangar $463 Add-Ons - X1 Three Pack - LTI (Origin X1, Origin X1 Velocity, Origin Force) $130 LTI, Origin X1 Poster, Origin X1 Model, Aeroview Hangar $169         (OTHER INSURANCE)       - MISC ENDEAVOR ADD-ONS       ADD-ONS - BIODOME POD ANNIVERSARY 2017 $100 60 month insurance (5 Year) $135 ADD-ONS - MEDICAL BAY POD ANNIVERSARY 2017 $75 60 month insurance (5 Year) $105 ADD-ONS - SUPERCOLLIDER POD ANNIVERSARY 2017 $125 60 month insurance (5 Year) $165 ADD-ONS - TELESCOPE ARRAY POD ANNIVERSARY 2017 $125 60 month insurance (5 Year) $165 - AEGIS RETALIATOR ADD-ONS       ADD-ONS - RETALIATOR FRONT TORPEDO BAY $75 24 month insurance (2 Year) $110 ADD-ONS - RETALIATOR REAR TORPEDO BAY $50 24 month insurance (2 Year) $80          
    • By Gerdes
      For sale is a Hammerhead ship, was originally bought as a mustang and through many upgrades the game package is now sitting with a hammerhead ship. 
      Price - $400
      The purchase method will be through PayPal via an invoice that I will send to the interested party, once the payment is received the hammerhead game package will be sent via a gift and you will have to check your email. 

      just really wanting to get rid of this ship as I don't have any intention of playing star citizen any longer.
      not only is it a ship but it is also a game package. meaning that with it you have access to play star citizen. it is not just a stand alone ship. 
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