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SW Battlefront 2 P2W Fiasco, Lessons for SC?

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I am certain many of you have noticed the recent shitstorm that hit EA Star Wars Battlefront 2 the last few days.

Amusing things I noticed :

A  people find it ridiculous that they have to play for 40 hours to unlock Darth Vader or Luke (they call it P2W because you need to buy loot crates to speed up the proces) ...

B  People find it P2W since those loot crates also contain Star cards which give your heros extra advantages (so the more loot crates you buy the better your heros will be)

Mind you: EVERYTHING CAN BE UNLOCKED IN GAME without buying any Crystals and loot crates just like in SC but it will take much longer.

I think we can draw an analogy between Battlefront and SC:

- People in SC will need to play at least 40 hours in order to unlock a Mid Tier ship (and hundreds if not thousands of hours for the most expensive ships). We all paid for these ships and without any doubt they are much better than the Aurora/etc. that comes with a standard game package.

- People that buy military grade guns/missiles/components with real money in game once the game goes live (and even now) undoubtedly have an advantage over players that need to progress through the different tiers by trading and looting. At the very least for the first few months you will see massive differences between players that start with only a starter ship and a flight jacket and work their way up and the players that spend hundreds/thousands of $ on the game and are flying glaives, hornets, a polaris etc. while doing FPS combat in their heavy Marine armour.

 

If the same people that play Battlefront 2 want to come and play SC then I assume Chris will get to deal with the same shitstorm by the time the game gets close to release. Will he deal with it in the same way? EA lowered the 40 hours to unlock DV to about 10 hours, what are the chances that Chris will reduce the time needed to "grind" for a Connie to 8 hours. What if the reddit morons throw another fit and demand that everyone should be able to own their own destroyer after 40 hours of gameplay? I am kinda afraid that the marketing "geniuses" at CIG will cave in to the pressure too and reduce the time needed to get the best weapons and ships just to appease the reviewers and vocal reddit users.

What do you think?

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I think RSI is profiting with their current plan and does not need to bend unless they become cash strapped.  This is why we are so eager to back a publisher-less project.  No one pulling the strings in the name of the all mighty dollar.  In the words of @Juntau "Nothing is off the table" when it comes to funding.   While I don't mind regular episode DLC's for SQ42, I hope Star Citizen does not begin to require new purchases.  They will need to be real smart if they want this game to last.

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We currently have little solid information on CIG's post-release plans. I HOPE that CIG will stick to selling cosmetic upgrades.. like skins, alien pets... Chris Roberts bobble-heads that moves his hands..(and when you poke it he says "fidelity!")... and that concept ships and military upgrades will become a in-game purchase.

Sure, they did tell us they want to sell limited amounts of credits via the website, with which one could potentially buy upgrades but exactly how many credits you can buy vs how much a ingame weapon will cost is still up in the air. The idea is that, if you just need a little more credits after playing for a while, the credit store might be a solution. Also, they want to combat goldfarmers (or should I say; credit-farmers?) with controlling a piece of that themselves.

I think it's too soon to freak out but CIG does need to take a good look at where the current of PC gaming is headed... and then how they will go against that current because that is pretty much why we all backed them.

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1 hour ago, Fizzlefuse said:

We currently have little solid information on CIG's post-release plans. I HOPE that CIG will stick to selling cosmetic upgrades.. like skins, alien pets... Chris Roberts bobble-heads that moves his hands..(and when you poke it he says "fidelity!")...

I want one of those CR bobble-heads! :lol:

The shitstorm that has swept over SW Battlefront 2 is certainly concerning.  There is an argument for that game in being P2W with Star Cards giving you in-game advantages.  But the thing with Star Citizen is that there really is no advantage in weapons or ships (as has been the plan).  The weapons, armors, and ships are only really useful to the skilled players, and they all play in a Rock-Paper-Scissors table where A can counter B which can counter C which can counter A.  CR has also explained the notion of not having any "levels" to advance to.  SC is supposed to be that you are only as good as you can play the game.  Different weapons, ships, and armors will only tailor to play styles rather than having an advantage.  And CR has stated from the start that he wants the ship pricing to be on par with real-world car pricing.  You want a Ferrari (Idris), you've got to earn the steep price in credits to buy one; not everyone is driving one IRL.  Like others, I am afraid of the "instant gratification" crowd that does not want to spend the time to earn up to the large ships.  The crybabies may be very vocal...

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Well there a few things we've been told over the years:

A) Upgrades buyable with RL money in Star Citizen will not be the best gear. In WoW terms, they'll be white and green quality, not epics. You can't buy "military grade" weapons with RL money, you have to earn it one way or another in-game.

B] They will still sell ships for RL money even after the game is launched, but it'll be restricted to the starter packages or possibly a bit better (up to a normal Hornet or thereabouts).

C) You can't buy character upgrades, you can probably buy better gear to a point, but similar to ship components, you won't be able to buy the best stuff for RL money. There will be artificial limbs and whatnot in the game too, but its unclear if they'll actually be enhanced over normal flesh and blood.  Basically the MMO-trope naked character improvement isn't a thing, Star Citizen relies on player skill and gear alone.

D) I've never heard anyone indicate that there will be anything you can "unlock" with RL money.  The things you will be able to buy with RL money will be unlocked from the start for in-game currency purchase too.

E) You can buy in-game coin with RL money.  There will be a daily (or weekly, some time period) limit, as this is intended to even out people who don't have the play time but want to get ahead.  What you can actually buy with in-game coin obtained this way is unclear, I personally hope that you'll have to "unlock" or find obscure sellers in dangerous areas to be able to buy the good stuff.  Of course there will be the in-game player economy to consider here too, so you probably will be able to buy good gear from another player who salvaged it via normal gameplay.  This is the slipperiest slope IMO and I would favor it going away.

F) There won't be any gamble boxes to buy with RL money.  I haven't heard this from CIG directly, but I think I have a good idea that this won't be a thing.  CR is about immersion, not loot materializing out of nowhere.

G) The stuff you can get now with RL money that will take a long time to earn in-game later is a thank-you gift for funding the game's development above and beyond the normal game price.  Once the game is done being funded and/or developed, the rules are supposed to change.  They won't give out these thank-you gifts any more, and instead the game will shift to the regular funding model, whatever they decide that will be.  So far the indication is that it'll be buy to play, subscription optional (Elder Scrolls Online style).  The game will perpetuate by selling cosmetic changes and in-game coin for RL money, and via starter packages, and from selling Squadron 42 single player chapters.

 

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2 hours ago, Xeras said:

I guess we'll see with these land claims how it all goes down... I personally don't know how I feel about them yet.

I think it's an appropriate time as any considering the Pioneer was put up for sale recently as well. If you're going to build a ship around POS building, why wouldn't you also set up a Sovereignty system?

They aren't selling packages with predetermined amounts of resources, rather you're buying a stick to shove in the ground that tells people to fuck off when they get within 4km or 8km of it. What's in those 16km^2 or 64km^2 is based upon where you set it down.

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2 hours ago, Xeras said:

I guess we'll see with these land claims how it all goes down... I personally don't know how I feel about them yet

it's just "land" somewhere out in space to facilitate the setting up of a base of operations - so what. And any argument of P2W in SC is hogwash because the only end goal in SC will be the one you set yourself. I can get better ships now. So what. Most of my ships are non-combat related.

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CIG could cave, but what would that get the whiners? Ships they can't afford or fly? I think in the next year or so people will really start coming to grips with what their large ships will truly demand in terms of operating them. 

These ships are designed for large player teams to own and operate in the verse, not as end game goals for single players. They only appear this way because when they're for sale, its individuals buying them.

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I was just offering a rebuttal to that particular point.

CIG most definitely stepped into a minefield today. Unless they know something I don't (and I really hope they do), this is not the right time to drop a mechanic like this on the community. This would have been better delayed until nearer release of the actual test mechanic or until after the holiday season when all the insanity surrounding the other big AAA games dies down.

Luckily though, CIG does have math on their side (it will be impossible for them to sell a moon, much less a planet), that players would have asked for this ability at some point anyways, that it actually takes significant gameplay to find a "valuable" claim (which may only actually suit one or two professions or extraction mechanisms), and that much of the player base just isn't particularly interested (sounds like more Fallout 4 Settlements. *shakes fist* damn you Preston Garvey!!!). 

On the other hand, it may be brilliant because its a whole stock of unlimited resources that takes very little dev effort to get working right. 

This mechanic doesn't scream P2W to me because you actually need to be a somewhat advanced player in order to actually utilize it for maximum advantage. You'll need a massive stack of UEC anyways to pay for the exploration data (if you can't explore it yourself), to pay for raw materials, for the pioneer and crew, for shuttles so you can bring more of your ships and equipment to the site, for transports to remove extracted resources. Just buying the claim itself may actually be the cheapest portion of land claim gameplay (assuming you didn't buy a survey ship, a mining ship, a pioneer, and a large transport of your own already).

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I don't see the land claims as even remotely being P2W or giving advantage to the whales.

1. It takes manpower and manhours to fully realize a plot. Meaning plots (like most proposed aspects of the game) are geared towards orgs and teamwork-based play.

2. Purchasing claims still requires you to survey, and populate. Simply claiming land gives little value. It still requires gameplay, less so with more people (see point 1).

3. Claims only pertain to UEE-controlled  space, and only act to protect a claim. That means neutral space is free game. Defend your plots, mine/grow/settle at your own risk. But it also means you could potentially have larger plots and not have to pay anywhere near as much. Risk vs. Reward.

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8 hours ago, Sharpspoonful said:

I don't see the land claims as even remotely being P2W or giving advantage to the whales.

1. It takes manpower and manhours to fully realize a plot. Meaning plots (like most proposed aspects of the game) are geared towards orgs and teamwork-based play.

2. Purchasing claims still requires you to survey, and populate. Simply claiming land gives little value. It still requires gameplay, less so with more people (see point 1).

3. Claims only pertain to UEE-controlled  space, and only act to protect a claim. That means neutral space is free game. Defend your plots, mine/grow/settle at your own risk. But it also means you could potentially have larger plots and not have to pay anywhere near as much. Risk vs. Reward.

I'm not sure if it is arrogance or just plain stupidity which made CIG make this stupid step :rolleyes: 

Anyone with half a brain would be able to predict that this landgrab would turn into a shitstorm especially so close after the EA nightmare. Personally I can see how it could be seen as P2W (or in the case of SC: Pay 2 get an advantage over other players who start at the same time and invest a similar amount of time to the game). 

Ad 1 and 2: If you own a pioneer, scout and survey ship and 20 claim tokens from the outset then you are much more likely to find and claim the best locations (minerals, views, proximity to cities or defense instalations,etc.) before anyone who starts with an Aurora even has the cash to buy his first token. I am assuming here that not all locations are created with the exact same resources and that only a small % of locations are "ideal". Securing those locations in the first week of the game will give players a resource advantage which will allow them to build up their assets (money, ships, facilities, etc.) much faster than a starter pack player. 

ad 3 : For people looking to invest in factories, refineries, etc. I assume they would like to do this under the protection of the UEE so claims in UEE space should be more valuable than "free" claims outside UEE space that can be destroyed readily by anyone willing to invest in a few missiles and gattling rounds ;)

I know .. I know... Someone will now jump up and say: There is no Win in SC so there cannot be P2W. Come on guys ... If you get raped in PvP because the other guy has top of the line equipment already 1 day after the start of the game then you will yell P2W. If someone else builds his business empire much faster than you because he is flying full Hull E's with escorts on day 1 or another Org is able to grab that Vanduul carrier because they spent thousands on expensive ships with their Org then you will yell P2W. If you are a pirate and invest everything in your ship in lawless space and you get caught every day by bounty hunters in ships that you cannot afford for another 6 months then you will yell P2W.

There might be no end game in SC, so there is no winning or losing a capture the flag round but that doesn't mean that you can't win or lose in SC. Losing your ship will hurt, losing your cargo will hurt, losing your life will hurt ... if you lose because the other guy is better than you then this is usually fine, if you lose because the other guy spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on ships and AI wingmen then I think we can call this Pay2Win or not?

Disclaimer: the author of this rant also invested heavily in SC, mostly because he does not have the time to grind for the nicer ships but still wants to fly them ;)

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2 hours ago, Booster Terrik said:

I'm not sure if it is arrogance or just plain stupidity which made CIG make this stupid step :rolleyes: 

Anyone with half a brain would be able to predict that this landgrab would turn into a shitstorm especially so close after the EA nightmare. Personally I can see how it could be seen as P2W (or in the case of SC: Pay 2 get an advantage over other players who start at the same time and invest a similar amount of time to the game). 

Ad 1 and 2: If you own a pioneer, scout and survey ship and 20 claim tokens from the outset then you are much more likely to find and claim the best locations (minerals, views, proximity to cities or defense instalations,etc.) before anyone who starts with an Aurora even has the cash to buy his first token. I am assuming here that not all locations are created with the exact same resources and that only a small % of locations are "ideal". Securing those locations in the first week of the game will give players a resource advantage which will allow them to build up their assets (money, ships, facilities, etc.) much faster than a starter pack player. 

ad 3 : For people looking to invest in factories, refineries, etc. I assume they would like to do this under the protection of the UEE so claims in UEE space should be more valuable than "free" claims outside UEE space that can be destroyed readily by anyone willing to invest in a few missiles and gattling rounds ;)

I know .. I know... Someone will now jump up and say: There is no Win in SC so there cannot be P2W. Come on guys ... If you get raped in PvP because the other guy has top of the line equipment already 1 day after the start of the game then you will yell P2W. If someone else builds his business empire much faster than you because he is flying full Hull E's with escorts on day 1 or another Org is able to grab that Vanduul carrier because they spent thousands on expensive ships with their Org then you will yell P2W. If you are a pirate and invest everything in your ship in lawless space and you get caught every day by bounty hunters in ships that you cannot afford for another 6 months then you will yell P2W.

There might be no end game in SC, so there is no winning or losing a capture the flag round but that doesn't mean that you can't win or lose in SC. Losing your ship will hurt, losing your cargo will hurt, losing your life will hurt ... if you lose because the other guy is better than you then this is usually fine, if you lose because the other guy spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on ships and AI wingmen then I think we can call this Pay2Win or not?

Disclaimer: the author of this rant also invested heavily in SC, mostly because he does not have the time to grind for the nicer ships but still wants to fly them ;)

And that's what my initial reaction was. They did say that they won't be enabling land claims on Day 1, so I assume that they will enable them only when they feel (keyword) that the majority of players have enough game experience and assets to make it a contest between the players that buy land claims now and the ones who will want to invest in land with UEC. I myself didn't buy a claim because I'm not sure where Imperium will settle and where my Squad will settle down. I feel that this should have been released at a later stage in development if not at the release of the game. It doesn't scream P2W, for me it screams money grab over an unexplored, unrefined and unfinished game mechanic; there is just so much we don't know to be able to think about this clearly. And once again, I have spent enough money on this game and will probably end up spending more before this year's sale ends because I love space games and this will be one hell of an awesome game.

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I watch RoosterTeeth's The Know gaming news channel and the land claims popped up today. The treated it as they always treat SC news, with amusement. Instead of drawing P2W parallels, they instead used it as an example of "look what those crazy guys will do next" and suggested that it could soon become the next Second Life.

IF CIG were to build out SC to have the scope of Second Life, I think such a move could have some advantages because of all the life simulator folks who may then join. An increased player population on planets and stations with little interest in combat or flying is good for the rest of us because it adds flavor to the inevitable sea of NPCs.

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I haven't watched it yet :o I'll go check it out. Don't get me wrong, overall I'm very excited with this mechanic. I simply think that some people might and will interpret this early move as a money grab. 

I agree, the more players the better and the merrier.

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24 minutes ago, Xeras said:

I haven't watched it yet :o I'll go check it out. Don't get me wrong, overall I'm very excited with this mechanic. I simply think that some people might and will interpret this early move as a money grab. 

I agree, the more players the better and the merrier.

If the community hasn't screamed "P2W!" over sales of Idrii or Hull-Es, I don't see them yelling it over this. It still will take time to get established. Is the guy with a big org, a Hull-C, and a land claim going to have a step up economically on someone with a starter package? Yes, probably. But doesn't mean he's won anything other than economic security.

The more stuff you have, the more time and resources you have to put into maintaining them. It's almost exponential, infact. Who is going to have the increased overhead, the Hull-C owner, or the Aurora owner?

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The reassuring part is where they said you'll have plenty of time to earn in-game money to buy claims in the 'verse.  That and the planets, moons, etc being so huge that basically the entire planet Earth would have to be playing Star Citizen for them to run out of good locations.

I have no plans to buy any claims with RL money.  This is one of those things that screams to me that it'll be better to get them with in-game credits.  I may have given CIG a nice chunk of my money, but that doesn't mean I don't try to maximize my value.

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On 11/29/2017 at 6:01 PM, FoxChard said:

snip

Do yourself a favor and stop watching anything from RoosterTeeth, period.

If a table of 20-somethings bashing Jeff Gerstmann (a man who has been doing game reviews longer than they've been alive) for him DARING to say that Fallout 4 console ports were fucked while wearing those stupid plastic Pip-Boys doesn't convince you that entire group is fucked to the core, then I don't know what can.

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