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SW Battlefront 2 P2W Fiasco, Lessons for SC?


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On 12/9/2017 at 11:24 AM, Caldon said:

people will see everything as p2w

P2W is only P2W if there is an end goal (in SC there isn't) and there are weapons/things you can only purchase with RL money that you cannot get with in-game money (which in SC you cannot). Being able to take a shortcut is not P2W it is "Pay to Play the Way I Want to" or P2PtWIWt. Trying to get people to believe that SC is P2W is nothing short of just being jealous that 1) you can't take the shortcut, or 2) you'll never reach the goal you'll establish for YOURSELF and someone else can. 

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I believe that the key difference between Star Citizen's crowd-funding model, which will evolve into a F2P micro-transaction pay model, is that there aren't "elite" variants of ships that can be bought using money. Yes, there are capital ships that cost upwards of $750. However, they can't be solo-ed. If some d-bag with more money than brains buys an Idris and thinks he'll be invincible in the PU, he's going to have his precious cap ship jacked by Pirates. Or players in Retaliators and Eclipses will use his cap ship as target practice. It makes no sense to own a cap ship unless you're a member of an Org and/or have plenty of friends to team up with in the PU.

I think the most expensive solo ship in the game is the Esperia Glaive at $350, which was (originally) a limited edition that could only be unlocked if you completed Vanduul Swarm. That's not really P2W because you had to have legit skills in AC to unlock it, then were willing to pay $350 USD. However, anyone who has flown the Glaive knows its NOT a dominant starfighter. If anything it's a major handicap in PvP AC. I think that CIG will re-balance the Glaive -- and probably ALL Vanduul ships -- when Squadron 42 is finally released, and it'll be a more formidable dogfighter. However, paying $350 for a Glaive isn't a ticket to win.

Next is the super-rare Captured Vanduul Scythe at $300. After that it's the Aegis Eclipse stealth bomber at $275. The Eclipse has stealth and carries half as many torpedoes as a Retaliator, making it a serious threat. But it's ability to launch surprise torpedo strikes is balanced by its limited torpedo capacity and vulnerability to interceptors, especially after it's revealed its presence by launching its torpedoes.

My point is that SC backers can't solo P2W. The most powerful and expensive ships require a crew to properly, so a whale will be helping out numerous players by letting them crew their ships. I think that benefits everyone in the Star Citizen community.

Another huge difference is that loot boxes are gambling because there's no certainty about what you'll get from them. It could be an Epic star card, or junk. When a backer buys a pledge package, standalone ship, or UEC chit to buy weapons and components in VDS, they know what they're buying. There's no element of chance. The only uncertainty is with Concept Ships, because we don't know what the ships will be like when they're finally flyable. But we know when we buy a ship like the Hawk or the Hammerhead the type of ship we'll get in the end.

And finally, the most important difference is that Cloud Imperium Games is an independent game developer, not a big greedy game publisher like EvilCorp (EA), Activision, Ubisoft, Warner Bros, or Take-Two. None of those publishers would've financed Star Citizen / Squadron 42. That's why Chris Roberts chose crowdfunding to make his dream game into a reality. If Star Citizen was being published by a big evil game publisher, I would never pay more than $60 USD for it. Not $80 "Special Edition" or $100 "Gold Edition" or $40 Season Pass, or any other greedy bullshit.

Instead, I've willingly helped fund Star Citizen's development because no other game dev or publisher has the talent, ambition, and guts to attempt a game of this unprecedented scale and fidelity.

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2 hours ago, Reavern said:

When a backer buys a pledge package, standalone ship, or UEC chit to buy weapons and components in VDS, they know what they're buying. There's no element of chance. The only uncertainty is with Concept Ships, because we don't know what the ships will be like when they're finally flyable. But we know when we buy a ship like the Hawk or the Hammerhead the type of ship we'll get in the end.

And even then, you have the opportunity to "melt" the ship and buy something else with the credits if it turns out you don't like it.  Which even furthers how unlike gamble boxes it is.

I still think at the end of the crowd funding period, CIG should let people redistribute their dollars however they want, no restrictions, and give everyone LTI on everything.  The artificial scarcity is the biggest single part of why Star Citizen and P2W are even mentioned in the same sentence.  Its the furthest down the slippery slope they go.

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19 minutes ago, Boildown said:

And even then, you have the opportunity to "melt" the ship and buy something else with the credits if it turns out you don't like it.  Which even furthers how unlike gamble boxes it is.

I still think at the end of the crowd funding period, CIG should let people redistribute their dollars however they want, no restrictions, and give everyone LTI on everything.  The artificial scarcity is the biggest single part of why Star Citizen and P2W are even mentioned in the same sentence.  Its the furthest down the slippery slope they go.

CIG has informed backers that when the Alpha transitions to the Beta, our ships will become locked, meaning we'll have to apply any upgrades or CCUs we've been holding, or they'll become useless. At that point, the Pledge Store will disappear and we'll only be able to buy in-game items with UECs.

That's the opposite of letting backers redistribute their pledge dollars however they want. I'd be okay with that -- I bought some weapons from the VDS I'd like to refund -- but it would be a 180 from what CIG said will happen.

I don't think CIG will allow us to redistribute our pledge dollars or grant LTI to all ships purchased before the Beta Lock. But we will be able to sell our ships in-game for UECs. That's not as good, but at least it's something. We won't be stuck with our pledge ships forever. For example, I predict that a lot of players with Starter packages will sell their Auroras or Mustangs and buy new and better ships. We just might not get the full value of our ships if we choose to sell them, because they'll be used. Also, I doubt that LTI will transfer from the sold ship to the new ship. Players will have to decide between the peace of mind of an LTI ship versus being able to afford to buy a new ship sooner. Personally, I'd keep the LTI ship.

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10 hours ago, Gremlich said:

P2W is only P2W if there is an end goal (in SC there isn't) and there are weapons/things you can only purchase with RL money that you cannot get with in-game money (which in SC you cannot). Being able to take a shortcut is not P2W it is "Pay to Play the Way I Want to" or P2PtWIWt. Trying to get people to believe that SC is P2W is nothing short of just being jealous that 1) you can't take the shortcut, or 2) you'll never reach the goal you'll establish for YOURSELF and someone else can. 

I know it's not P2W, and I'm not disputing you on that. It's just that SC has a lot of enemies on the interwebz, and that after BF2's microtransaction extravaganza people will be quicker to jump on the bandwagon and call everything P2W. And that goes double for SC who already has accusations of P2W flying round its ears. People are stupid & panicky creatures like that.

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4 hours ago, Caldon said:

 People are stupid

Could have just shortened the post to just that.

Trying to convince the torch-weilding mob their anger is misplaced in a certain situation is futile. The most you can hope for is that they get smartened up individually. But in the mob where their hatred enables one another, they only see things they want burned down.

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