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Yakkus_The_Kub

Permadeath? Please make this optional, not compulsory

35 posts in this topic

Hallo all, first post here.

Aside from following the official Star Citizen Youtube channel, I also follow Bored Gamer, and his breakdown of recent news was something I found particularly concerning. Like many others, I'm excited for and have invested much into this game. But the prospect of permadeath? Please, no. For those who want it specifically, I'm sure a game mode can be introduced to cater for this. This was one of the things that put me off Chronicles of Elyria. This is my opinion, of course, in that I get the desire for realism, but ultimately this is a game, and there comes a point where the realism becomes an impediment. 

What do others think about this?

Lakota likes this

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Well, iirc it's said that a character won't suffer permadeath at once except for absolutely stupid actions like flying in a black hole.

Like a cat the character will have nine lives. Imho that's enough to soften the PU up. Beyond that I'm all for permadeath.

As it's also a balancing factor to punish people doing stupid and griefing things. Plus it'll be a certain part of the risk/reward system.

If you think it's too hard - stay in secured space. I've no love for the easy mode that ruins games for a couple of years now.

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Permadeath in star citizen isn't permadeath like you know it from other games.
Every character will have a, yet undefined, amount of times it can respawn at a medical bay before "permadeath" sets in. When you create a character you also fill in a name for a benefactor.. which is pretty much your next character after thisone expires. After your lives are all used up your character dies but your benefactor takes over, presumably with some loss in reputation/standing with certain factions, perhaps some carried items that were on your person at the time.. and a monetary loss, like some kind of fee. Likely you will also need to fill in the next character for when that guy dies as well. You will attend your own funeral and then carry on with the game:D

You will enherit the ships and items so you wont lose anything exept the before mentioned rep and a little cash.
They want to put this in the game so people consider a character more valuable and are more carefull with their characters and dont kamikaze into everything and everyone.

This is most of what we know about it and they might change their minds, who knows. I for one am ok with this.

 

Ostia, Caldon, xKiLlFrEnZyx and 2 others like this

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Stahlkopp is almost correct. Chris said you will have about 3 to, maybe, 5 lives. Every time your character becomes more beaten up, with scars, robotic limbs, etc. At the final death, you will see your own funeral, where your next of kin or beneficiary is present. That will be your next character, who will inherit everything with a penalty to reputations.

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2 minutes ago, Stahlkopp said:

Well, iirc it's said that a character won't suffer permadeath at once except for absolutely stupid actions like flying in a black hole.

Like a cat the character will have nine lives. Imho that's enough to soften the PU up. Beyond that I'm all for permadeath.

As it's also a balancing factor to punish people doing stupid and griefing things. Plus it'll be a certain part of the risk/reward system.

If you think it's too hard - stay in secured space. I've no love for the easy mode that ruins games for a couple of years now.


While flying into a black hole would realisticly be permadeath, I guess CIG would make it an exception to the realism in favor of gameplay and have your character respawn anyway unless all your lives are used up.

I doubt even high-sec space will be completely without danger since armastice zones will be going away at some point, meaning you can still die a horrible death:p

 

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Imho its not really Permadeath.

 

Why? Because you keep all your assets. Traditionally a permadeath game is one where you loose all your assets on death and have to start from zero for examples in roguelike games.

Now you could argue it is indeed Permadeath because your specific avatar is permanently dead. But what is it that is dead anyway. You can freely choose appearance and other characteristics. And the new character is still identifyable as in lineage with the old character. Plus you keep all your ships and in SC your ship profile is probably way more what defines your account than your character profile anywqay because this is not a RPG with charac ter levels, skills and abilities. Your not really loosing anything.

So imho its just a more immersive/realistic representation of unlimited lives instead of permadeath.

Core, WarWulf, Lakota and 1 other like this

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As far as I understand it. As long as you don't get your brain splattered you can keep respawning and you may have scars and mechanical augmentations that replace bodyparts and the like.

But if your brain does go splat, you "die". Either you get a relative or a clone to replace your char and your "legacy" continues. This "successor" will BE you with all the same assets, just maybe a different look(unless its a clone). Legacy wise they will be different but from a gameplay perspective... they are the same.

The only people who will really care about this are roleplayers AFAIK :P I feel like the REP loss will be minor. And the fee you pay for the loss of a character is the same as if you RESPAWNED at a med center with your current one and perhaps... if they are smart they will give you the option to "customize" the funeral arrangements... if you pay alot for a huge funeral.. you don't incur a REP loss. if you pay none and bury him in an unmarked grave, you might incur more rep loss.. but we don't know about this shit yet :D

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Thanks for responding. I get the reasons behind this system, it's just not something I'm particularly keen on myself, perhaps I'm in the minority here. I would hope that this becomes an option rather than compulsory, that way (hopefully) there'll be different styles available to players.

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Personally I feel we won't be affected by it so much. But I understand your feelings on the matter. I just... wouldn't worry about it too much :)

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11 hours ago, Yakkus_The_Kub said:

What do others think about this?

Welcome, new forum participant. Should have done some research into the SC universe. this has been planned for since forever. There will be a point where you cannot be repaired. Play smarter and you won't have to "die". This sets SC above other MMO's in which you just rinse/repeat. I'm glad we won't have the usual character respawn mechanism.

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Without instituting permadeath and other restrictions (just giving assets away, etc) there would be no real way to combat griefing. Besides that, and perhaps more importantly, the purpose is for you to play this as if your life mattered. As if your interactions and provocative actions had consequence. CR apparently doesn't want a game where people just shoot at everyone they see and to the victor goes the spoils. Personally I'm with him on this. I'd like a game where we can meet, possibly be friends, possibly have a tense encounter but part without firing at each other.

That's me. If I'm out flying my Carrack, the last thing I want is Call of Duty in space. One thing you haven't mentioned is why you don't want it. What do you think it does to detract from the game?



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"optional" haha. Anyway, It is not as bad as it seems, you could loose a very small portion of your "liquid" cash but that's all really. Everything will remain the same except standings which still haven't decided on yet. You won't loss any ships or goods, they'll be transferred to you again. Anyway, You can die a few times before you really "die" then  the whole "you're your own grandpa". Again they still haven't decided officially deaths over time. IE 3 deaths over 1 week or it could be 3 deaths over one day and you are dead completely. 

It isn't really permadeath by a long shoot. permadeaths only really work in SP or some MP games, but not in a PU.

edit: sorry "you're your own grandpa" means you will come back as a different "relation" really.

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Everything is tied to Death of a Spaceman when searched on http://www.scqa.info

It's a well written article which means not much if anything has changed regarding the mechanic. If "perma-death" were just an option, nobody would choose it. The game has real consequences and we all just have to....

Nicholson.gif

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14 hours ago, Yakkus_The_Kub said:

Hallo all, first post here.

Aside from following the official Star Citizen Youtube channel, I also follow Bored Gamer, and his breakdown of recent news was something I found particularly concerning. Like many others, I'm excited for and have invested much into this game. But the prospect of permadeath? Please, no. For those who want it specifically, I'm sure a game mode can be introduced to cater for this. This was one of the things that put me off Chronicles of Elyria. This is my opinion, of course, in that I get the desire for realism, but ultimately this is a game, and there comes a point where the realism becomes an impediment. 

What do others think about this?

Then the economy and tactics of the game will be broken and SC will just end up like EVE, where death has zero consequence because insurance is so cheap and org wars are won by who has the biggest bank account.

Permadeath makes an individual more careful. The idea that the next death could be the last for a character you invested time in, but acted stupidly with will be a tangible setback. If you want it to be compulsory then sorry, SC will not be for you. Otherwise, reconcile with your predicament.

9 hours ago, Core said:

Personally I feel we won't be affected by it so much. But I understand your feelings on the matter. I just... wouldn't worry about it too much :)

Yes and no.

Yes: It will be of negligible effect in the grand scheme because there is little in the way of true setbacks that will cripple an individual's ability to get back into the Verse, unless they were spending their money stupidly. A pilot dying in combat will respawn and have their ship replaced and be compensated for everything they insured.

No: The loss of material and the setback of not having a skilled individual present at the location they are needed will be a major setback. The loss of something like an Idris is more a loss in the munitions, cargo and aftermarket components monetarily, but the biggest impact will be that an entire crew is now out of action for a short amount of time until a new ship can be requisitioned and fitted for combat. Living to fight another day and licking your wounds will be far more beneficial in the short term than straining logistics assembling a lost crew. You don't win wars by dying.

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Pretty much everything's been said above. The reality of the game is that this has been on the books since roughly when the game was announced. It will be instituted, but the actual penalty won't be as big of a thing as it would be in other games. Overall it helps make sure that people aren't wantonly offing themselves and actually take care when they're going about their business in the 'verse. As much as it differs from other MMOs, it's not as punishing as other games that literally kill your toon and you have to start over.

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8 hours ago, J. Coren said:

Yes and no.

Yes: It will be of negligible effect in the grand scheme because there is little in the way of true setbacks that will cripple an individual's ability to get back into the Verse, unless they were spending their money stupidly. A pilot dying in combat will respawn and have their ship replaced and be compensated for everything they insured.

No: The loss of material and the setback of not having a skilled individual present at the location they are needed will be a major setback. The loss of something like an Idris is more a loss in the munitions, cargo and aftermarket components monetarily, but the biggest impact will be that an entire crew is now out of action for a short amount of time until a new ship can be requisitioned and fitted for combat. Living to fight another day and licking your wounds will be far more beneficial in the short term than straining logistics assembling a lost crew. You don't win wars by dying.

I think you are mixing up 2 things here. Permadeath as described by death of a spaceman is the loss of a virtual avatar which will be instantly replaced by a new virtual avatar. That is the yes part in your reponse but the no part in your response has nothing to do with permadeath. Death in this game regardless of loss of avatar will "remove you from the location" unless there is a "hospital spawnship nearby". Nothing "perma" about it. Just death. I get what you are saying and your point is valid, just not in regards to permadeath.

The reason why I say this is because, if I take what you said at face value, then the perma aspect to you is the removal from that location, whereas if there was no permadeath, you wouldn't be removed from the location? You would stay there? Respawn there? Be unable to die there?

No in this case that you're describing, both death and permadeath lead to removal from location. 

Just to clarify, in EVE if you died, you would respawn in a clone center you had designated but your avatar would never die.(you might lose implants and experience but hey, different story) You would still be "removed from the location". This counts as death, but not "permadeath".

Permadeath in games like DayZ just mean respawn naked and try again(Althought experience and knowledge were the real resource in that game) and in SC you will never lose all your gear. You may lose what you had on you just like in DayZ but your hangar is in tact and your bank accounts are still filled. That's less DayZ and more "Escape from tarkov" :D

 

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10 hours ago, Core said:

The reason why I say this is because, if I take what you said at face value, then the perma aspect to you is the removal from that location, whereas if there was no permadeath, you wouldn't be removed from the location? You would stay there? Respawn there? Be unable to die there?

No in this case that you're describing, both death and permadeath lead to removal from location. 

Removal from the immediate area due to death IS the problem.

To continue with my analogy: Even if the Idris crew all respawn on an Endeavor set up as a hospital ship nearby, the tangible effects of their deaths is that they aren't aboard an Idris in a combat zone anymore, and that will last until they can be fitted for combat again. If you were someone who punched the last ticket on your character this could mean that end up even further away, thus meaning either you or someone in the org has to come and get you, thus widening the window of time where the crew isn't under way.

Death -in whatever form- in is a penalty. For combat, it means you aren't in your ship fighting anymore. For industry, that means the materials you were transporting will not end up in the place they need to be by their deadline. Permadeath just tacks a little extra time on the period between respawning and resuming what you were doing before.

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4 hours ago, J. Coren said:

Removal from the immediate area due to death IS the problem.

To continue with my analogy: Even if the Idris crew all respawn on an Endeavor set up as a hospital ship nearby, the tangible effects of their deaths is that they aren't aboard an Idris in a combat zone anymore, and that will last until they can be fitted for combat again. If you were someone who punched the last ticket on your character this could mean that end up even further away, thus meaning either you or someone in the org has to come and get you, thus widening the window of time where the crew isn't under way.

Death -in whatever form- in is a penalty. For combat, it means you aren't in your ship fighting anymore. For industry, that means the materials you were transporting will not end up in the place they need to be by their deadline. Permadeath just tacks a little extra time on the period between respawning and resuming what you were doing before.

Like I said before. I understand what you're saying but there is only one definition of permadeath, any other death is just not permadeath. Permadeath is defined as:

The permanent death of a defeated character, after which the player of the game cannot continue with the same character.

From a  tactical and strategic point of view I get you, but I don't think they were OP's concerns.

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5 minutes ago, Core said:

but I don't think they were OP's concerns

sure read like it

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2 minutes ago, Gremlich said:

sure read like it

Really? OP cared about loss of location? Cause the way I read it. OP was turned off by Chronicles of Elyria which featured aging and death. So I believe OP was asking more about character permeance and less about loss of location. I could be wrong here. But hey, you be the judge.

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On 8/27/2017 at 6:36 AM, Yakkus_The_Kub said:

Hallo all, first post here.

Aside from following the official Star Citizen Youtube channel, I also follow Bored Gamer, and his breakdown of recent news was something I found particularly concerning. Like many others, I'm excited for and have invested much into this game. But the prospect of permadeath? Please, no. For those who want it specifically, I'm sure a game mode can be introduced to cater for this. This was one of the things that put me off Chronicles of Elyria. This is my opinion, of course, in that I get the desire for realism, but ultimately this is a game, and there comes a point where the realism becomes an impediment. 

What do others think about this?

I think Fizzlefuzz hits it on the head for how i understand how death mechanics will work. You wont lose everything asset wise, it just goes to the next benefactor (next character) and you wake up in bed soo many times before then. Until we see how this mechanic is designed its just speculation and we can only go off what they plan to do. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 8:46 PM, Core said:

I could be wrong here. But hey, you be the judge.

I was referring to permadeath, not anything to do with location etc

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On 28/08/2017 at 2:45 AM, GeraldEvans said:

The real consequence is one of the biggest selling points.

Or the biggest dealbreaker, for some of the people who aren't you. It's not like either side gets listened to at any rate, regardless of how much we may cheer or decry it - it just so happens that roguelike-fans get their wish on this one while everybody else's options are reduced to acquiring CR-shaped voodoo pincushions and/or not playing.

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50 minutes ago, Porcupine said:

Or the biggest dealbreaker, for some of the people who aren't you. It's not like either side gets listened to at any rate, regardless of how much we may cheer or decry it - it just so happens that roguelike-fans get their wish on this one while everybody else's options are reduced to acquiring CR-shaped voodoo pincushions and/or not playing.

As far as I know, if you really want to not lose your character, there's nothing stopping you from making your next character look exactly like your old one and sorta pretend it never happened. I doubt many NPC's will have heard of you, or your death, so there's not a lot of things around to remind you.

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      What I like about this system is that it creates a sense of mortality and history. No one’s character will die right away. It will take some time to get to that point, but players will feel a sense of risk and so will think twice before needlessly risking their lives, as they don’t want to burn through their “lives”. You’ll also be able to see visually how battle scarred someone is – perhaps having an eye patch or a cybernetic arm could be a badge of pride that you’ve been to war and survived.
       
      When a character finally does shuffle off the mortal coil, the player hasn’t lost what he has really put in the game time to build up – his ship(s), equipment and other assets. These pass to the next of kin / beneficiary. And there is a successor to carry on the family legacy or to avenge the deceased character. (“My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!”)  This will hopefully create a competition between players to see how much they can achieve in the life span of their current characters. The ones that achieve greatness via killing a Star Citizen unique NPC or taking part in a unique event, like discovering a new jump point or system, are recorded in the Galactapedia and become part of the universe lore and history.
       

       
      This doesn’t just apply to a player character. For me, it’s vital that there are non-player characters (NPCs) are both unique and can be killed. In a single player game, no one minds that many other players have completed the same quest and killed the very same boss monster because the world only revolves around you. But if you take the same quest in a MMO, which is meant to be a shared persistent universe, knowing that the next party will kill the very same boss in the same spot breaks the “suspension of disbelief”. Most MMOs just accept this as the price you pay with having many thousands of players – all expecting to be a hero.
       
      Not Star Citizen.
       
      Major NPCs will be unique. And if they are in a place where they can be killed, they will be killed only once. Think of it as a very hard to win achievement that one player or group of players in the game will ever achieve. If you manage to kill the “Dread Pirate Roberts”, that will be part of your legend, similar to discovering a new jump point or star system.  Upon the death of a “boss” NPC, we won’t re-spawn him or her, but there will be someone that steps in to fill the void, so the same area of space may now be terrorized by “The Black Skull”.  Major NPC “bosses” will be a unique scalp for a player good enough to beat them. But almost all bosses will have someone waiting in the wings.
       
      While people may feel my proposed death mechanic may hamper their “role playing” of a character they have created an elaborate personal backstory for, I would counter that it will actually enhance it. There is no reason not to have the same backstory, but now it’s the story of your present character and his / her descendants. How many famous people are made and driven by the accomplishments of their parents?
       
      Trust Me!

       
      I realize this game is not going to fulfill everyone’s personal vision of what they think it will be. That would be impossible. There will be some things in Star Citizen’s game design that WILL take people out of their comfort zone. That’s a good thing.
       
      You backed me to make the game in my head and that’s what I’m going to do.
       

      I do listen and when I think something makes sense, I fold it into my thinking as long as it is compatible with the vision I am trying to achieve. But this won’t happen in all cases, so please keep an open mind and wait until you have a chance to play Star Citizen. And even then you should know that we will balance and tweak – that’s the whole point of having such a great community so early – for your feedback and ideas – and if something truly is broken for a large part of the player population we will fix it. We are an online game and frequent updates and tweaks are a core part of the Star Citizen vision.
       
       
      Question and Answer   Q. What qualifies as a “death”?Not ejecting before your ship blows up, taking a head shot during boarding, having your ejected pilot or escape pod targeted and destroyed while floating in space.
       
      Q. How any “lives” will I get?The exact number of “lives” will be balanced as development of the game progresses. The intention is to allow multiple “deaths” before you’re properly dead. So expect to wake up in the med bay at least half a dozen times if not more. And getting to this point won’t be common unless you are participating in a lot of boarding actions or flying in areas where there is no law and order. Please note that it will not ultimately be a single, static counter: taking different risks and dying in different ways will impact your overall survivability at different rates. Remember, the key to Star Citizen is visceral realism: so while the system works this way under the hood, there’s not going to be a “life counter” at the bottom of your screen!
       
      Q. What happens on a disconnect or rage quit? Do I lose a life?When you disconnect (or otherwise quit in flight) the server attempts to take you to “auto pilot”. If you’re in a space instance (i.e. not already in warp/ auto pilot) and close enough to a hostile the server will attempt to gain enough separation to enter auto pilot.  If it’s successful the server will then place your ship back on the planet you last landed on.  If not, and you haven’t managed to reconnect to your AI controlled ship before the hostile destroys your ship it is assumed you ejected successfully and will be returned to the last planet you landed on. If you have insurance will have a new hull waiting for you. We will monitor player’s disconnects and if we feel like you are “gaming” the system we may enact a “death” penalty on you and decrease your internal life count.
       
      Q. What are the penalties for targeting an ejected pilot?Players who target helpless ejected pilots in civilized space that don’t have an official UEE death bounty on their heads are the scum of the universe and will be treated as such by the authorities and marked for death by other players. Pilots who shoot down ejection pods will have trouble navigating civilized space because the police will be on their tails… and they’ll have trouble in the lawless regions, too, because there will be heavy government bounties on their heads (in addition to any player bounties that might be added.)
       
      Q. How long do I float in space before being “rescued”?When you eject in an active battle instance you can float and watch the action. You can activate your rescue beacon at any time, and when there are no hostiles within a certain distance the game will fade out, then fade up with “… a little time later” and have an in-engine cinematic of your pilot / pod being tractored in to a rescue and recovery vehicle. The game will then cut to the last planet you “saved” on, and you looking at your new replacement ship (assuming you have insurance).
       
      Q. What happens with a “head shot” in boarding?A head shot is more likely to be fatal than any other injury! Boarding a ship is an extremely risky proposition… you can gain a valuable prize by capturing another player’s property but you’re putting yourself at the most risk possible. It’s possible you’ll just lose an eye or a jaw… but there’s also a very small chance you’ll take a laser to the brain and be dead forever. Taking a head shot while defending a ship is usually less fatal: defending ships will allow their casualties more immediate access to medical facilities.
       
      Q. How will you counteract griefing?We believe this system will actually dis-incentivize griefers: If you’re a player who wants to camp out in a safe area to kill new players, you’ll quickly have a bounty on your head, and legal PvP will be authorized on you. If you target ejected pilots, lethal force on your ejected pilot can be authorized too. Attempting to grief new players will probably hasten your character’s death a lot quicker than the new players you’re trying to terrorize. We feel that by giving harsh penalties to people that target ejected pilots, allowing most injuries to be survivable, letting players upgrade for survivability to their specifications will help reduce the incentive to grief. But we’re also aware that everything will need to be balanced once the game goes live. So that’s our most important promise: we will continue to balance this system so that it works rather than allowing it to become a tool for players who want to make the game difficult for others.
       
      Q. How can I reduce my chances of dying?Ship upgrades will include a variety of systems designed to increase the survivability of vehicle loss, including improved ejection systems, improved space suits and personal shielding, better power plant cores (to give you more time to escape) and various automated systems (so that you can set your fighter to eject you after a certain amount of damage has been suffered.)There will also be an upgrade system surrounding your “battle damage”; if your character loses an eye or an arm and you would like a natural replacement rather than a cybernetic-looking implant, you will be able to pursue these in certain markets. Additionally there may be certain medical procedures or limb / organ replacements that can increase your lifespan (effectively add a few lives back)
       
      Q. Is there any way to opt-out of the death system?There is no way to opt-out of death in the persistent world, but remember that Star Citizen will include options for running your own server. We’ll allow you the option to set the game to infinite lives in this case.
       
      Q. Will multi-person crews be able to escape the destruction of their ships?Yes, all spacecraft in Star Citizen are being designed to allow crew members to eject or otherwise abandon ship.
       
      Q. Can I rescue or tractor in an ally?Yes. If you have room and you recover an ejected friend they can become crew on your ship. In addition if you rescue other players and survive the battle you will get a rescue payment from the rescued pilot’s ship insurance company once you land on the next planet. Space rescue and recovery is standard on all ship insurance policies.
       
      Q. What happens I am captured rather than rescued?If your escape pod is captured by another player or NPC, your game will continue… but there will be penalties depending on your situation. If you are a criminal and are delivered to a prison planet, for instance, you will need to pay off the authorities to escape. If you are sold into slavery, you will need to buy your freedom.
       
      Q. Are you concerned that the fear of permanent death will scare players away from combat?No. We’re building a combat game and are going to do everything possible to encourage players to dogfight and otherwise battle each other. In most dogfights, even if your ship is destroyed, you won’t lose a life as it’s very likely you will eject in time. Waking up in a med bay with a new limb should be a rare occurrence unless you really like to live in the most dangerous and unregulated parts of the galaxy. The fear of permanent death will cause some anxiety which will add to the overall experience… but it will be more than countered by the potential rewards. In a world where everyone is vulnerable, no one has an advantage.
       
      Q. I already created a backstory for my character, I don’t want them to die!We’re letting you know these plans early on so that you can incorporate them into your characters. Note that your next-of-kin need not be family members, for anyone hoping to role play a “lone wolf” character.
       
      Q. Will I need to play through Squadron 42 a second time with a new character?No, everything you earned from Squadron 42 the first time will pass on: Citizenship, credits earned, starter ship and the like. If your beneficiary was a citizen his/her status will pass on down to you as well with a probation period that you have to perform some actions / missions / job to keep the Citizenship in good standing. You will have the option of playing a second campaign if you so desire, but it will not be required.