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StarC_Newbie

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all comments within are my opinions.


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The question i am asking is this:


Are we hurting ourselves / RSI by continuing to give them FREE money / adding backing money ? 


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Make no mistake every time we add to the backing it is money they dont have to repay anyone. 


It does add to the over all Valuation of CIG / RSI as a company since its used to build the studio and as marketing reference.


Considering the recorded sale of both Digital Anvil and Point of no Return are we pushing the RSI / CIG valuation to the point that we doom it to sale by CR & the other partners?


If we dont doom it to sale are we making the product / game delayed due to the steady influx of free cash to RSI ?


By constantly backing via the never ending ship sales do we prevent RSI from developing healthy business models for funding and expenditures ?


Do we allow unrealistic "perfection" goals for a game that inherently can never be perfect ?


Do we send the message that they dont have to live up to the hype that got this all started ?


We backed for Star Citizen, we let them add in another full game ( SQ42 ). Are we sending the message ... hey add in another AAA game to this Star Citizen budget we will wait even longer and fund all 3 !


Sooner or later you cut your child off and say good luck in the world ...... It is the BEST thing you can do FOR them.


I believe at almost 160 million we have given that child ( SC ) life and the ability to go forth and mature on its own now.


StarC

 

Please add in your thoughts but be respectful of all views.

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Why does this topic come up every year...

46 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

Are we hurting ourselves / RSI by continuing to give them FREE money / adding backing money ? 

No. Why would giving them money hurt them? Are you getting hurt every time your job pays you?

47 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

If we dont doom it to sale are we making the product / game delayed due to the steady influx of free cash to RSI ?

Delay? Show me a release date

47 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

By constantly backing via the never ending ship sales do we prevent RSI from developing healthy business models for funding and expenditures ?

Again, how is putting money into a company hurting them?

48 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

Do we allow unrealistic "perfection" goals for a game that inherently can never be perfect ?

It's not our decision. This is Chris Roberts' life work in public display. Do you want to remember him as someone who made compromises to deliver a product or someone who tried to make the best product despite the long development time?

50 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

Do we send the message that they dont have to live up to the hype that got this all started ?

Send what message? The majority are perfectly fine waiting. There are many other things to do in life if you don't want to stay for the journey.

51 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

We backed for Star Citizen, we let them add in another full game ( SQ42 ). Are we sending the message ... hey add in another AAA game to this Star Citizen budget we will wait even longer and fund all 3 !

SQ42 is the original pitch for Star Citizen. The persistence Universe was a stretch goal. Since both use the exact same technology and mechanics there's no reason to stop on one or the other. Also remember Cloud Imperium Games is a game studio. Every studio starts off with a single game and moves onto others. We're literally watching the birth of a Blizzard-esk company.

54 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

Sooner or later you cut your child off and say good luck in the world ...... It is the BEST thing you can do FOR them.


I believe at almost 160 million we have given that child ( SC ) life and the ability to go forth and mature on its own now.

Are you implying giving up on the project and moving on? Or do you believe you have more experience than the decades of experience behind the scenes at CIG?

 

 

I believe your perception of the project is warped or misconstrued. Many years go into the development of games even under studios that have hundreds of employees. You're watching a single man and a handful of people come out of a basement in Austin, Texas, build a multinational game studio, and develop one of the most ambitious games in the last 20yrs of game development. It appears that you're not patient or understand what's going on, which makes you worry about those things. And that's perfectly fine. 

Something you can take from this is: Don't worry about things that are out of your control. Enjoy the ride, sit back, and relax. 

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I would disagree, first off we pushed for it to reach this point. We asked for more and they gave it. Using your example, we cant punish your kid that had a modest goal, but you decided it could be better and gave him 100x more money than he was asking for to do it and the also get impatient when there are problems because of what WE told them they can and should do.

Also you distinguish SC and SQ54 completely. These are much to intertwined to say you can have one without the other. SQ42 is a separate game, but its creation has been the sandbox for the basic construction of SC. There is literally nothing that is going into SC that will no be implemented in SQ42. Just because you have enough money to have a separate team work on a different aspect of the project that would have had to of happened in one way or another, doesn't mean its being slowed down or they are spreading recourses thin. They are building a game from the ground up, no programming suites, no prior examples no nothing. To expect this to hit any deadline given right now is crazy. Ultimately we did this but now people are getting impatient and trying to force a game out before its ready. It's not CIG's fault that people don't read that this is in pre-alpha.

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I am very aware games are a time consuming endeavor. It doesnt change the fact that its a business and needs to have a realistic project focus and stays on track ..... it is why game development went to big production houses .... to many Developers let their projects grow in scope and out of control till doomed ....

 

I am VERY well aware of the issues to developing and testing games and their bugs etc .... 

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2 minutes ago, Th3 Warm0ng3r said:

It's not CIG's fault that people don't read that this is in pre-alpha.

I feel like a lot of people are so impressed by what they see and believe they have so much potential, the thought comes to mind that perhaps, it's too much to handle. It's difficult to describe the overwhelming features and mechanics that SC has to offer, because there are hundreds of minds at CIG trying to develop this game. Not any one mind can think of everything, and we have examples of Chris answering questions and having no answer for, yet it takes 2mins to search for it in the wiki. It's simply too much for someone to talk into this project and try to imagine everything that the game will offer. We should be thankful so many people take time our of their day, usually volunteer, to make Wiki's and source material. It would simply be too much to handle without anything written down at this point.

That's why I'm starting to believe so many new people get intimidated by this project from CIG.

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Just now, StarC_Newbie said:

I am very aware games are a time consuming endeavor. It doesnt change the fact that its a business and needs to have a realistic project focus and stays on track ..... it is why game development went to big production houses .... to many Developers let their projects grow in scope and out of control till doomed ....

 

I am VERY well aware of the issues to developing and testing games and their bugs etc .... 

Where, in your mind, would you consider proof of CIG having a lack project focus? To me, they seem very focused on the core gameplay and techincal details that will allow the game to be what they promised us back in 2012.

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I'd hate to pull the "as an engineer" card, but...

As an engineer, I can tell you this : whenever you work on something new, and especially something ambitious, your original planning will quickly become invalid. And with something like Star Citizen, there's a lot of ambitious new stuff involved. Delays will require money, since the staff making the game will of course need to be paid. And after development is finished, there will need to be upkeep for servers, patches, that kind of thing.

These sales help make sure SC will keep existing, even after development is done. It makes SC less reliant on ads or microtransactions. So no, we are in fact helping ourselves by giving CIG more money.

But you already know this, or so you say. So how come you ask this question? :P 

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actually they NEED a business model developed before backer funding dries up or its doomed to failure IMHO. The sooner that is established the better for all. Often times it opens up idea's, solutions, partnerships and options you did not have before. If you try to build funding etc as its needed thats like trying to desperately sell a house ... often times the sharks in the water give you far less then you could of gotten if you were not desperate..... 

I agree delays occur on new ground ... but sometimes you have to accept you cant get everything you want and build what is reasonable. Thats true as an engineer and a game developer. Its why so many engineering projects are collaborative. If it was just set a goal it will happen .... Nasa would still be building our spacecraft / space stations, and we all would be in the stars already.

 

Want does not = can do. Now if you are Bill Gates and want to drop a few billion making a perfect tic tac toe game all the power to you, its your money ....

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They have a business model. They have a small team in several studio's creating starships to sell, and flesh out the diversity of the ships in the game. They find a niche where a ship could be put, fill it, and sell it. With, what, 2 million backers? There's going to be someone that likes each ship.

These sales typically rake in a large amount of money. Just look up the funding on the RSI website. Every time a sale happens, boom. Spike in funding. Depending on the hype, it could be tens of thousands to several hundreds of thousands they rake in. In fact, the new 600i launch brought in almost 500 thousand dollars for CIG. And with these enormous boons, coupled with their regular sales from the ever growing community, they soldier on.

It doesn't look desperate. It looks like the game is still alive. And with the talent they hired on from CryTek and others, they have already made things possible that were previously the stuff of daydreams.

I honestly struggle to see your point here. Did you even look half of what you said up?

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6 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

actually they NEED a business model developed before backer funding dries up or its doomed to failure IMHO.

I'm curious, where are you getting the notion that funds are drying up or that the project is potentially doomed to failure? Do you have some sort of insider information that others don't have access to?

8 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

actually they NEED a business model

What's makes you believe they don't? Are you sure, 100%, that a multinational company, employing hundreds of employee's, with people who have been in the industry since before some of us were born, don't have a business model?

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as large as they have grown its basic math as to the kind of cash they burn monthly just in payroll. this can easily be estimated on the low end of pay and carried forward, add in rent, utilities, basic business supplies,  insurances, network usage and bandwidth and so on it all adds up VERY fast. Business costs are not cheap. Just to keep the doors open has a cost ..... just for starters

 

do a detailed cost expenditure for yourself..... dont forget toothpaste, soap, toliet paper and all the things we use we basically take for granted

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2 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

as large as they have grown its basic math as to the kind of cash they burn monthly just in payroll. this can easily be estimated on the low end of pay and carried forward, add in rent, utilities, basic business supplies,  insurances, network usage and bandwidth and so on it all adds up VERY fast. Business costs are not cheap. Just to keep the doors open has a cost ..... just for starters

 

do a detailed cost expenditure for yourself..... dont forget toothpaste, soap, toliet paper and all the things we use we basically take for granted

You know, there is another person who claimed to have insider information of CIG's spending and that they were going under soon. And he never delivered.

So! Convince us otherwise. Please, show us what you have. And your sources, too. No guesswork.

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"You know, there is another person who claimed to have insider information of CIG's spending and that they were going under soon."

 

First i never said i was using inside information, did I ? Please dont try to pawn me off like a Deric Smart..... thats rude and ive been civil.

Unlike Deric Smart i personally have helped fund the project > $50,000.00 so yes i truly want it to be a success. I am however realistic about it. 

I am not new to the project by any means, the reality is that backer money - WILL - dry up and the sooner rather then later its covered as an issue the better for the project.

In the end RSI will have to stand on its own with some viable business model to draw from. 

 

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Just now, StarC_Newbie said:

First i never said i was using inside information, did I ? Please dont try to pawn me off like a Deric Smart..... thats rude and ive been civil.

It's not rude to compare your words and assumptions with that of a man who says and assumed the same things.

4 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

Unlike Deric Smart i personally have helped fund the project > $50,000.00 so yes i truly want it to be a success. I am however realistic about it. 

If you were realistic about it, you'd realize the scale of what this project is trying to achieve and how CIG have to write the book for this kind of game as they go. There isn't an MMOFPS Tech Demo they started with to build upon like there would be with Unity or Unreal.

The frontier wasn't explored in one year.

10 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

In the end RSI will have to stand on its own with some viable business model to draw from. 

And they do have a business model: keep promising content during the development phase followed by continued support during the release phase.

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6 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

as large as they have grown its basic math as to the kind of cash they burn monthly just in payroll. this can easily be estimated on the low end of pay and carried forward, add in rent, utilities, basic business supplies,  insurances, network usage and bandwidth and so on it all adds up VERY fast. Business costs are not cheap. Just to keep the doors open has a cost ..... just for starters

 

do a detailed cost expenditure for yourself..... dont forget toothpaste, soap, toliet paper and all the things we use we basically take for granted

There is such a business plan and why we have these releases for presales at pretty regular intervals. In fact a few sales ago one ship did not due as projected and so the completion and change in release of the next ships were changed to make up the difference. If that doesn't show a financial team and strategy I don't know what does.

And I believe you are completely mistaken when it comes to what they want to make and what they can make. You said yourself, they are not in debt, they don't have any oversight from a "we need to make profits" company. They aren't in any sort of desperate position. They have a core group of many of us that have been here since the beginning and/or early days providing support as well as that of the new people although less support of what it can be and more of what they want now. We are going to make what we want. If new funding dries up then we can always go the conventional route and go through business loans or contracting with a company. The systems and programs they have developed for SC already will be worth HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in licensing rights to other games in the future that start to use lumberyard when they see the potential. Any company would be happy to back them for the rights to those alone. Or they could always shut down a branch to finish the single player for more revenue when it releases....

Ultimately it comes down to the same fact, the vision hasn't changed. Their schedule has always extreme fluidity for movement, and for the majority of us who have been here for years and seen the progress and the dream of what we want actually coming true, we are perfectly fine waiting. It hasn't been a problem until we finally saw playable progress that people are coming out, dropping some money and then after 2 months of not getting the full release start complaining. Not saying your are or are not one of these people but honestly, the only thing im tired and frustrated with is the amount of ruckus the small amount of people are making about this. As said above we see this all the time and have for the last year and a half.

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22 minutes ago, StarC_Newbie said:

"You know, there is another person who claimed to have insider information of CIG's spending and that they were going under soon."

 

First i never said i was using inside information, did I ? Please dont try to pawn me off like a Deric Smart..... thats rude and ive been civil.

Unlike Deric Smart i personally have helped fund the project > $50,000.00 so yes i truly want it to be a success. I am however realistic about it. 

I am not new to the project by any means, the reality is that backer money - WILL - dry up and the sooner rather then later its covered as an issue the better for the project.

In the end RSI will have to stand on its own with some viable business model to draw from. 

 

You spent 50.000 bucks on SC? And you are questioning CIG's financial decisions?

Anyway. Look at the funding page. Unless they're lying, they bring in about $2M/month. Let's assume 400 employees for CIG, all paid about $40000 per year. Or roughly $3300 per month. That means about $1.32M per month of salaries they need to pay, leaving them with an average of $700K for other expenses per month. I don't know the rent and their electricity bills, but something tells me it's not 700K per month.

I think they have their finances in order, although of course, I have no access to CIG's bookkeeping. But I very much doubt that they have survived since late 2012 by having a bad business plan or by letting the money dry up.

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so coren did you volunteer for this years gamescom ? or was citizencon 2016 it for you ?

 

and because i may agree that getting off backer monies sooner rather then later after 160 million backer dollars has been given does not make me a deric smart. To be honest thats just childish and dismissive. It comes across as petty and immature and is white knightish. 

 

promises dont pay bills nor make a game ...... just an fyi. I ll gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today ( i promise )

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1 minute ago, StarC_Newbie said:

so coren did you volunteer for this years gamescom ? or was citizencon 2016 it for you ?

 

and because i may agree that getting off backer monies sooner rather then later after 160 million backer dollars has been given does not make me a deric smart. To be honest thats just childish and dismissive. It comes across as petty and immature and is white knightish. 

 

promises dont pay bills nor make a game ...... just an fyi. I ll gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today ( i promise )

Many of these expenditures are business expenses that are returned back into the company, and we have examples of this that are public information from Gov.UK. If anything a lot of these events are free and tax write offs, including other business tax write offs that are not mentioned and something you learn in a high school business class.

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Thats awesome Caldon

 

now lets add in the 10,000 / 20,000 in added taxes and benifit cost to the employer etc ... it all adds up VERY fast, ooops we forgot all the travel expenses, and hotels, hardware costs and ..... 

"i personally have helped fund the project > $50,000.00" i did not say with my own money .....

as i said i WANT it to be a success, i am however a realist 

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1 minute ago, StarC_Newbie said:

Thats awesome Caldon

 

now lets add in the 10,000 / 20,000 in added taxes and benifit cost to the employer etc ... it all adds up VERY fast, ooops we forgot all the travel expenses, and hotels and ..... 

"i personally have helped fund the project > $50,000.00" i did not say with my own money .....

as i said i WANT it to be a success, i am however a realist 

Again, tax write offs. The govt rebates you on business expenditures 

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Sorry, but I have to ask: How much is your personal hangar worth? I ask because it would appear that you do quite a lot of reselling, meaning the 50K you've put into the project is money that would have been there anyway by way of your clientele, with the difference that you're collecting money for yourself.

I'm not sure what you're going on about here, but it would appear to me that CIG has things well in hand.

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I was basically going to write what Donut said. I would just like to add that often, salaries are expressed before taxes. So that's what the employer pays.

I think, personally, that you have no idea what you are talking about Starc. I'm going to leave you to your ideas.

1 minute ago, StarC_Newbie said:

a tax write off means you get a small portion of the money spent back, not all much less the majority ..... thats is basic business in H.S. 

No, it means that you can deduct them from the taxes you have to pay. So basically they are free. Although in America this could be different.

 

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"Sorry, but I have to ask: How much is your personal hangar worth? I ask because it would appear that you do quite a lot of reselling, meaning the 50K you've put into the project is money that would have been there anyway by way of your clientele, with the difference that you're collecting money for yourself."

 

at its peak i personally had about 15k in and you ?

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1 minute ago, StarC_Newbie said:

a tax write off means you get a small portion of the money spent back, not all much less the majority ..... thats is basic business in H.S. 

It's not a percentage but the whole amount...

"In income tax calculation, a write-off is the itemized deduction of an item's value from a person's taxable income. Thus, if a person in the United States has a taxable income of $50,000 per year, a $100 telephone for business use would lower the taxable income to $49,900."

Source: https://finance.duke.edu/accounting/glaccts/expenses/exp69xx.php

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