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Donut

CIG Catering to Pirates and Thieves?

33 posts in this topic

Questions on ownership after the latest ATV episode

 
Discussion
July 28th at 05:30 am
Question

Hi All,

 

Really enjoyed this weeks ATV episode around the persistence and the ownership of items. In particular around the legal ownership of items. Although I have some questions about it.

 

If i buy an item i am the legal owner all good.

If i take my cargo and load my ship but I crash or get shot down - Am i still the legal owner of the cargo?

If i make a claim on the ship and cargo that i just lost am i still the cargo's legal owner or does it change to the insurance company/no owner? (if it changes to the insurance companies cargo it could be some nice little missions for smaller ships to recover etc).

If I am in space and i find a wreck with floating cargo can i check if there is an owner as i wouldn't want to get a wanted level?

 

Also from the video it was mentioned that when containers are spawned in for missions/containers etc. people are tasked to recover them but when they spawn they don't have any owners. 

 

In a case like this how would someone legally claim the cargo they have salvaged? Is this done at a scavenger shop/outpost or remotely on the fly?

In the case above if someone is manually taking the crates off a derelict and stacking them in their ship. Is the cargo legally theirs at this stage or would i be able to sneak in and steal some crates from their ship without it being a crime?

 

I ask all as i would just out of interest  Also i hope there is a strong idea of how it will work in a way to stop people from grouping up and abusing the system in any way.

 

 

 

STAFF
 
 
Spoiler

 

CIG Chad McKinney@CIG_ChadMcKinney
July 28th at 11:07 pm

"If i buy an item i am the legal owner all good. 

If i take my cargo and load my ship but I crash or get shot down - Am i still the legal owner of the cargo?"

 

Legal ownership is established at the item's creation and never changes for the lifetime of the entity unless there is some kind of legal transaction. So yes, you are still the legal owner in this case. 

"If i make a claim on the ship and cargo that i just lost am i still the cargo's legal owner or does it change to the insurance company/no owner? (if it changes to the insurance companies cargo it could be some nice little missions for smaller ships to recover etc)."

 

You will no longer be the legal owner (though you may still be the physical owner). 

 

"If I am in space and i find a wreck with floating cargo can i check if there is an owner as i wouldn't want to get a wanted level?"

 

Not sure yet if the UI will tell you that. It could from the game code and persistence code side, but it depends on the UI implementation.

 

" In a case like this how would someone legally claim the cargo they have salvaged? Is this done at a scavenger shop/outpost or remotely on the fly? "

 

In this case the root solar system entity is the legal owner. You can be the physical owner, and you won't get a wanted level because it isn't stealing if you take something legally owned by the solar system.

 

" In the case above if someone is manually taking the crates off a derelict and stacking them in their ship. Is the cargo legally theirs at this stage or would i be able to sneak in and steal some crates from their ship without it being a crime?" 

If I steal a car and someone steals it from me I can't complain to the police about it...

 

 

Made this comment in the 3.0 Production Schedule but feels it deserves it's own topic here.

Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/questions-on-ownership-after-the-latest-atv-episod

In short, if you salvage or take something from the "universe", it's free game for anyone else to take it from you. Where does that leave law abiding Citizens? Are we to receive a criminal rating because we're protecting cargo that we technically don't own now? It feels as if the criminal can just walk right in and take it, and we have to let them since even though we took the time to find stuff on our own, none of that really matters. I believe the mechanic should be, once you acquire something that the universe owns, you are now the legal owner of said item. The "universe" should not have a claim on said item after a player recovers it as their own. For the universe to still lay claim is flawed from the very beginning in my understanding. You can't possibly say that you're stealing a rock you found at a park, and then someone goes into your vehicle and takes it from you, and not be able to make a report of someone stealing something that now belongs to you.

Thoughts?

Trak, Karmaslap and Riley Egret like this

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I have been theorizing on why salvage design doc has not been released and I have a theory that legal salvage is so intertwined with illegal salvage they need to design a system to differentiate the two.

They might be still working out doing a salvage claim system.  Something like when you encounter a wreck in legal space you can stake a claim on it.  If the claim is legit or approved then the contents are flagged as yours for you to clean up.  It might help prevent bottom feeders from seeking out Reclaimers and ninja looting and running away.

Stealing crates out of a ship that just salvaged them question puts a big hole in my theory.

Riley Egret likes this

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I believe it's just a hole in the "ownership" theory they are building, as soon as they realize it they will patch it.

I think in the last answer McKinney interpreted the question as "taking crates of a derelict ( that I made as a pirate)" so I wouldn't give it too much mind.

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I would hope that you would need to register the cargo as your own- either declaring it at a port or reporting it or such as found cargo. At that point, it should be insured as if you had purchased it and be legally yours. 

 

If it just ends up on your ship then it should still belong to the universe until you can make it to a port. 

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I think this would be hard to implement.... maybe im not seeing it right but it seems like a very hard grey area to add law to

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I think it should be simple. As Chad said, when an item/entity is spawned, legal ownership is given to the person who spawned it.

If the cargo is then dumped or otherwise lost, the cargo would still be registered to that player's name, but the player who finds it is allowed to take/sell it unless the player that owns it has reported it stolen/reports being the victim of piracy. At that point, the game's authorities can get on your rear for selling pirated or stolen goods.

Of course, the player that picks up the hot cargo should be able to see it's registered as being hot cargo. There should also be a system that prevents trolling, so people can't just dump cargo randomly and report it as missing as soon as someone picks it up. Perhaps it would also be a cool system to turn in hot cargo to the authorities. Reduced price, of course, but it would be legit and could increase your legal standing.

 

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Piracy and the like will happen and they are starting to put in the mechanisms to deal with it.  Starting.  This is still pre-beta and a very complex subject.  One of the problems with game development is trying to sit in a room and figure out every possible way very intelligent players will try to game the game.  The best way to deal with that is this pre-beta release idea of put out fleshed out rules and see how players work around them then make adjustments to deal with the issues.

Best thing we can probably do is identify holes in the system, test them among ourselves and report results.

Edit: In the spirit of this, I would be willing to be the 'victim' of some scenarios or the outlaw as needed.  We would just need to flesh out the scenarios we think need to be tested and find volunteers and assign roles.

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This is very complicated, something I am sure CIG has been spending a LOT of time discussing.  Like mentioned before me, there is only so far you can go in a conference room coming up with how players will try to game the game.  However, I do like their idea of cargo belonging to the solar system.  It is a mechanic that allows ownership to change when a ship is abandoned, destroyed, or derelict.  Obviously, the game code is tracking all of the information, it is just a matter of how the UI gives it to the players.  I am glad people are finally discussing this as this was a subject I've thought about a long time ago. 

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I don't think "finders keepers" is a law, not even in Star Citizen's fictional future universe.

Meaning if you find something in the PU, be it a forgotten cargo container filled with raw ore on a planet's surface, a gun dropped next to a corpse, or a derelict Starfarer adrift in space, it doesn't legally belong to you. If you don't have proof of ownership, you don't own it, you merely possess it ATM. If a criminal comes along, robs you at gunpoint or kills you, and takes the found item, they possess it. You can't report something stolen or file an insurance claim on something you didn't own.

If a player wants to be a salvager or scrapper or scavenger, they need to be able to defend themselves and whatever they find, and safely transport those items to a spaceport where they can sell them for credits. After the items are sold for UECs there won't be any ambiguity about ownership.

It seems like this is another case of SOLO players bemoaning how "unfair" it is that criminals can gang up on them and steal their stuff. That basically encapsulates the story of human civilization dating back to nomadic tribes of primitive humans crossing paths, fighting and killing each other, and the survivors claiming the spoils of war.

The solution is simple and time-tested: There is strength in numbers. TEAM UP!

It seems like the majority of the time, Lone Wolf players choose to fly solo because they're selfish and greedy and don't like to share the rewards from missions. Most MMORPGs have resolved this problem by paying out missions/quests the same no matter how many party members are involved, and I expect SC will do the same for PU generated missions. However, for "freeplay" missions that players create for themselves, for example, buying some items cheaply somewhere, travelling to somewhere far away and selling them for a large markup, the profits would/should be split between the party members.

Solo players don't like to share. They'd rather go it alone and reap all the rewards. But if anything happens to them along the way, they whine, "That's unfair! Pirates shouldn't be able to attack me and steal my stuff!" They want the game's rules to cater to them and reinforce their reckless behaviour.

That is why I have no sympathy for Lone Wolves. SC is a online multiplayer game. Playing with other players is what we all signed up for. It's pointless to complain if and when other players do something you don't like. You need to adapt and overcome. The best way to do that is team up with other players with shared interests and goals, and together you'll be stronger and less likely to be victimized by hostile players.

Quette likes this

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So, if I understand it correctly it's like this:
If I find a derelict and start putting cargo, that's "owned by the universe", into my cargo bay... that's fine.
However, someone could just come on board my ship while I'm loading up the cargo, wait for me to put in down... and pick up the boxes from my cargo bay and just walk off with them because it's technically not my property...

And if I shoot him/her for trespassing on my ship, and we happen to be in monitored space... I'm the criminal?

Oh boy... I can see a lot of trolling and grieving with this.

Donut likes this

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2 hours ago, Fizzlefuse said:

So, if I understand it correctly it's like this:
If I find a derelict and start putting cargo, that's "owned by the universe", into my cargo bay... that's fine.
However, someone could just come on board my ship while I'm loading up the cargo, wait for me to put in down... and pick up the boxes from my cargo bay and just walk off with them because it's technically not my property...

And if I shoot him/her for trespassing on my ship, and we happen to be in monitored space... I'm the criminal?

Oh boy... I can see a lot of trolling and grieving with this.

Exactly. Once you pick up an object or item that "belongs to the universe" it should automatically register to yourself. I used to look for Native American arrow heads in Virginia, and have quite a large display case of them. If someone walked into my house and took them, that's stealing my property. I laid claim to them and they belong to me in my possession, allowing me to make a police report on stolen property. This should also apply in Star Citizen.

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3 hours ago, Fizzlefuse said:

However, someone could just come on board my ship while I'm loading up the cargo, wait for me to put in down... and pick up the boxes from my cargo bay and just walk off with them because it's technically not my property...

And if I shoot him/her for trespassing on my ship, and we happen to be in monitored space... I'm the criminal?

Oh boy... I can see a lot of trolling and grieving with this.

This is pretty much how it works with burglary in most of Europe. :D

CyberianK likes this

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41 minutes ago, Donut said:

Exactly. Once you pick up an object or item that "belongs to the universe" it should automatically register to yourself. I used to look for Native American arrow heads in Virginia, and have quite a large display case of them. If someone walked into my house and took them, that's stealing my property. I laid claim to them and they belong to me in my possession, allowing me to make a police report on stolen property. This should also apply in Star Citizen.

Claiming ownership of 'found' things is and always has been questionable.

If find some 'item' like a bag of loot or something else of high value, the police will make a best effort to find a possible owner. If after a select time no one claims it and no official report indicates it was stolen, then it can become Yours by filing the proper forms.

Even the dug up items as you mentioned are in jeopardy at times. A lot of 'heritage' items are constantly being returned to the tribes or clans that can prove historical ownership. The British were poster children for bringing things home and claiming ownership. Now and again someone gets serious and they have to return things to the proper historical ancestors.

CIG has opened a can of worms with persistent ownership, as they are probably aware by now. We touched on this elsewhere with the question of how exactly does one steal a ship if the owner has not given you authority to fly it (station permissions).

It will all get worked out, but I expect to see a lot of exploits before it is all said and done.- DRUM out

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there's lots of stuff to be worked out for sure and that's why we have both Alpha and Beta to work out the finer details.  But, it is important that we test out all the possible exploits and problems we see and help CIG get fixes in before things really matter.

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5 hours ago, Fizzlefuse said:

So, if I understand it correctly it's like this:
If I find a derelict and start putting cargo, that's "owned by the universe", into my cargo bay... that's fine.
However, someone could just come on board my ship while I'm loading up the cargo, wait for me to put in down... and pick up the boxes from my cargo bay and just walk off with them because it's technically not my property...

And if I shoot him/her for trespassing on my ship, and we happen to be in monitored space... I'm the criminal?

Oh boy... I can see a lot of trolling and grieving with this.

That scenario is as absurd as it is naive.

Do you really think another player going to board your ship, take the stuff out of your ship's cargo hold, and just walk away? NO! That's insane! Any sane player that tried that would expect to be shot in the back. No player would do that. If a thief does board your ship, they're going to shoot you dead and either take all of your cargo, or your entire ship.

It's not going to be an absurd "unfair" situation wherein you're forced to decide whether to let another player walk off with your possessions or attack them to stop them, and incurring a criminal rating. I'd welcome the latter option every time. I'd blast the thief and then deal with the criminal rating at Security Post Kareah. Simple.

The far more plausible scenario is that a band of Pirate-players will board your ship and attack you. You either fight them off, or you die and lose everything. If you're smart, you'll be playing with several friendly players who will have your back and help fight off the Pirates. If you have a crew of players, it probably wouldn't even get to the point of fighting off a Pirate boarding party, because you'd have someone in the cockpit monitoring the sensors and they'd detect the Pirates' ship inbound. Then it would be a space dogfight or a chase, instead of a firefight aboard your own ship.

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5 hours ago, Reavern said:

Do you really think another player going to board your ship, take the stuff out of your ship's cargo hold, and just walk away? NO! That's insane! Any sane player that tried that would expect to be shot in the back. No player would do that. If a thief does board your ship, they're going to shoot you dead and either take all of your cargo, or your entire ship.

It's not going to be an absurd "unfair" situation wherein you're forced to decide whether to let another player walk off with your possessions or attack them to stop them, and incurring a criminal rating. I'd welcome the latter option every time. I'd blast the thief and then deal with the criminal rating at Security Post Kareah. Simple.

I dunno, I think it would be smart to go and unload someone's cargo from their ship in some cases. Stealing a ground vehicle or searching for some expensive crates when you aren't there. Perhaps breaking into a ship is far easier than hot-wiring it and getting away, and so it's effective to just steal the cargo for profit and make a getaway. 

I agree with you on the second point. I'd just blast him, criminal rating or not. I am sure that Imperium will allow us to submit footage/testimony if we have a pirate rating from something like that and I'm sure that there will be plenty of in-game ways to get rid of your rating assuming you are usually a law abiding citizen. 

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Hopefully pirates take cues from RL pirates... they "fly the black" (or whatever the 30th century equivalent is) and show their strength, and the target vessel has to choose whether to flee, fight, or eject some/all the cargo and hope that placates the pirates into doing nothing further.

If pirates always attack and kill the crew when they outclass the cargo carrier, the SC universe will be a lot less interesting.

 

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12 hours ago, Reavern said:

That scenario is as absurd as it is naive.

Do you really think another player going to board your ship, take the stuff out of your ship's cargo hold, and just walk away? NO! That's insane! Any sane player that tried that would expect to be shot in the back. No player would do that. If a thief does board your ship, they're going to shoot you dead and either take all of your cargo, or your entire ship.

It's not going to be an absurd "unfair" situation wherein you're forced to decide whether to let another player walk off with your possessions or attack them to stop them, and incurring a criminal rating. I'd welcome the latter option every time. I'd blast the thief and then deal with the criminal rating at Security Post Kareah. Simple.

The far more plausible scenario is that a band of Pirate-players will board your ship and attack you. You either fight them off, or you die and lose everything. If you're smart, you'll be playing with several friendly players who will have your back and help fight off the Pirates. If you have a crew of players, it probably wouldn't even get to the point of fighting off a Pirate boarding party, because you'd have someone in the cockpit monitoring the sensors and they'd detect the Pirates' ship inbound. Then it would be a space dogfight or a chase, instead of a firefight aboard your own ship.

First of all, I never said that EXACT scenario is going to play out, though it might. Learn to read between the lines, it's an example.

Second, you're the naive one if you think nobody would ever do that. If I have learned anything from videogames and the internet is that people do the craziest, absolutely absurd things. If you happen upon some floating cargo boxes, open up the cargo bay doors and float out to collect it, someone else can show up, EVA out of their own ship and just take what you just put down... without any risk of being flagged as a criminal. They can just take the box you just put in there because it's not technically yours, even though you got there first and it's in your cargohold.

I'm not saying they won't be shot by you if you catch them, or that they expect not to be shot but I'm saying YOU shooting THEM would then flag YOU as the criminal while they're taking sh*t right out of your cargo hold, if you're in monitored space. Some people will go to great lengths just to f*ck with people.

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It should be under "Law of the Sea" type of rules I.E. anything  legitimately found adrift without a claimant on board is considered "finders keepers." Look at international maritime rulings on Treasure Hunters, Piracy and adrift shipping. Because it is in space the rules should be no different. 

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One problem I foresee with this is maintaining the Imperium stance of being against piracy.  It will be hard to sell items found or "found" in the PU if it belongs to someone else.  I understand CIG's initial approach with when Player A buys cargo, it belongs to Player A.  However, let's say Player A dies and his ship, partially wrecked, is floating in dead space.  Player B discovers this derelict and collects the cargo, and salvages the ship for anything useful then leaves.  Now how should the cargo be identified?  Player B found a derelict, salvaged what he can, and plans to make UEC off it.  But he goes to Terra, tries to sell the goods, and is flagged due to the cargo being registered to Player A.  I would think at some point, ownership is lost.  And I believe everyone here would agree that we would interpret that line differently.  At what point should cargo change ownership, like in my example?  When Player A dies?  When Player B places the cargo on his ship?  When Player B goes to a black market shop and re-registers the cargo to his name?  Or it does not, and the cargo can only be sold in the black market, where ownership is never questioned?

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14 hours ago, Fizzlefuse said:

First of all, I never said that EXACT scenario is going to play out, though it might. Learn to read between the lines, it's an example.

Second, you're the naive one if you think nobody would ever do that. If I have learned anything from videogames and the internet is that people do the craziest, absolutely absurd things. If you happen upon some floating cargo boxes, open up the cargo bay doors and float out to collect it, someone else can show up, EVA out of their own ship and just take what you just put down... without any risk of being flagged as a criminal. They can just take the box you just put in there because it's not technically yours, even though you got there first and it's in your cargohold.

I'm not saying they won't be shot by you if you catch them, or that they expect not to be shot but I'm saying YOU shooting THEM would then flag YOU as the criminal while they're taking sh*t right out of your cargo hold, if you're in monitored space. Some people will go to great lengths just to f*ck with people.

If some fool sets foot on my ship without my permission, then he'd better be quicker on the draw than me. Because I don't care if I'm in monitored space or not, I shoot intruders on sight and deal with the consequences afterward. I'd expect no less from any other player.

That's why I criticized your scenario as absurd and naive. What to do if a thief just strolled onto your ship and tried to steal something is practically a rhetorical question. I'd shoot them dead. No question. No hesitation. No remorse. If I incurred a criminal rating as a result, I'd deal with it, even if it meant killing many, many more players trying to stop me from hacking Kareah.

Obeying the law doesn't mean you should have be a victim. It's as simple as that. If the PU's rules and laws allow players to take items that don't "legally" belong to anyone, then we need to deal with it. Ideally, CIG will devise rules/laws that will criminalize taking other players' possessions. However, I don't want an intrusive possession system either. Like if I stumble across a corpse in the PU, and there are dropped items next to it, I should be able to loot them freely, because their owner is dead. Those items wouldn't legally belong to me just because they're in my possession, but if another player tried to steal those possessions from me, I should be allowed to defend myself and my possessions. However, I don't expect CIG to implement PU rules and laws that I 100% agree with and that cater to how I choose to play.

I'd be content with Wild West "laws": The quicker draw is in the right. And if the loser of the duel has friends, they can overrule the result by gunning down the other guy. This all comes back to my belief that if you choose to be a Lone Wolf, you accept the consequences.

19 hours ago, Karmaslap said:

I dunno, I think it would be smart to go and unload someone's cargo from their ship in some cases. Stealing a ground vehicle or searching for some expensive crates when you aren't there. Perhaps breaking into a ship is far easier than hot-wiring it and getting away, and so it's effective to just steal the cargo for profit and make a getaway. 

I agree with you on the second point. I'd just blast him, criminal rating or not. I am sure that Imperium will allow us to submit footage/testimony if we have a pirate rating from something like that and I'm sure that there will be plenty of in-game ways to get rid of your rating assuming you are usually a law abiding citizen. 

Yes, I agree that some players will try to steal cargo, and in certain situations, they'll steal the cargo and leave the ship (perhaps the ship is damaged and not worth stealing).

It was the absurd scenario that I took issue with. Because it defies the "logic" of the game world. Every player spawns with a pistol by default, so every player is armed. Star Citizen is a game, not RL, so you don't have to worry about dying. And in the Alpha, there's no perma-death to worry about. The only issue is violating the law by killing another player to stop them from stealing your possessions. That is such a non-decision -- the choice is obvious! Shoot the thief and recover your belongings!

There's no way that Imperium will ban members just because they have a criminal rating. A criminal rating is far too easy to acquire, and as you said, it's easy to get rid of. I fully agree with Imperium's stance against piracy. However, there's a definite line between a Pirate and a player who breaks the law. There are extenuating circumstances that have to be taken into account, like self-defense or protecting one's property. I think that an Imperium member would have to go "full Pirate" before they're booted out.

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Im sure they will implement some system for dealing with intruders in your ship.... I find it ridiculous to think otherwise. If they don't that system will be abused beyond belief for easy "Legal" self-defense kills. And it would at least help deter stronger pirates/griefers from mobbing other weaker/single players. I know in other MMO's I've done the exact same thing (and had it done to me)... wanting to grief other players or get their loot, just go to a PVP enabled zone but not a specific PK zone or Arena/battleground.... follow them around and wait for them to do an AoE skill take the damage, kill them in self-defence with no negative karma as they attacked you *gasp*.

As for "Universe cargo" i feel a finders keepers method would work fine (to a degree)... Selling said item would be fine/no criminal report for selling stolen goods....But im not sure for a system about it getting jacked from you....

But items that are left behind from death/theft that did at one point did belong to the player should have a sort of internal clock, so after X amount of time its becomes "Universe's loot". Giving you time if you want to go back and reclaim it. (if you can find it)

 

 

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1 hour ago, xKiLlFrEnZyx said:

Im sure they will implement some system for dealing with intruders in your ship.... I find it ridiculous to think otherwise. If they don't that system will be abused beyond belief for easy "Legal" self-defense kills. And it would at least help deter stronger pirates/griefers from mobbing other weaker/single players. I know in other MMO's I've done the exact same thing (and had it done to me)... wanting to grief other players or get their loot, just go to a PVP enabled zone but not a specific PK zone or Arena/battleground.... follow them around and wait for them to do an AoE skill take the damage, kill them in self-defence with no negative karma as they attacked you *gasp*.

As for "Universe cargo" i feel a finders keepers method would work fine (to a degree)... Selling said item would be fine/no criminal report for selling stolen goods....But im not sure for a system about it getting jacked from you....

But items that are left behind from death/theft that did at one point did belong to the player should have a sort of internal clock, so after X amount of time its becomes "Universe's loot". Giving you time if you want to go back and reclaim it. (if you can find it)

 

 

I agree they need a way of dealing with intruders, especially since the UEE seems to follow Texas law when it comes to personal weaponry and ROE.

 

 However, I disagree with the idea of tons of "universe loot" floating around. As we can see with modern shipping, if someone gets paid for the loss, its the insurance companies' property and therefore they own the rights. I think, at least in UEE systems, insurance companies should be the ones that spawn missions to salvage something. Otherwise, it IS piracy. This would differentiate between pirates outfits who have one person blow the stuff up and have another person salvage it, collecting the goods and being able to fence them without risk or loss of  value. However, this obviously need some limits. Perhaps, after a period of time (I would advocate for longer, rather than shorter, to stymie pirates), if no one takes the job, then, and only then, will the wreck become unclaimed. This, to me, seems like common sense since a whole set of laws has been built around this in the real world.

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@faquarl25 When I was talking about "universe loot" I was meaning objects that were spawned in by the game as loot/resources and not someones (probably now dead) ship+cargo. 

I could have worded my 2nd point

8 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

But items that are left behind from death/theft that did at one point did belong to the player should have a sort of internal clock, so after X amount of time its becomes "Universe's loot". Giving you time if you want to go back and reclaim it. (if you can find it)

Better by saying that after this timer expires said items ownership would no longer be yours, from there if a claim is made the insurance company can seize it (or however that system will work) and a mission is generated to try and retrieve it or it becomes a sort of free game object where passer-byes that were in the right place at the right time can loot/salvage/steal? take the items/wreck/ship....

 

31 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

 However, I disagree with the idea of tons of "universe loot" floating around. As we can see with modern shipping, if someone gets paid for the loss, its the insurance companies' property and therefore they own the rights

I agree with this and assume youre talking about doing shipping missions set out by an NPC... where by if you get attacked and lose items thoes items would belong to whoever gave them to you (e.g. said NPC) for a period of time untill thier "ownership-upon-loss" timer expires.

 

Its just my opinion and view on it but it seems its going to be the least griefy way to do it.

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