Star Citizen Pay-to-Win -- But not because of buying ships

[Jivvy]

Up front, I'm not going to pretend to be certain about any facts I present, any references or claims are only what I have heard from another person, and if my memory serves correct, so please revise anything incorrect.
 

I heard, and I think many (especially early) backers will agree that Star Citizen was promised to be entirely independent of your real wallet, that the money you make outside of the game is entirely inconsequential to your gameplay and progression in the universe. A lot of people complained and are complaining that being able to buy ships for real money is pay-to-win, but I think it's necessary to fund the game, and is altogether not a huge factor. I mean, you can really fly one ship at a time, so having them is hardly something that would affect you, and most backers would only have a few at most at release.

Then I saw this:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/extras?product_id=41

In case the link doesn't work, or whatever may happen, essentially one can purchase UEC with real money, and even if the page is taken down, it has been said that it is planned for this to be a part of future income. I have seen a few youtube channels (BoredGamer, among them) saying this.

In a lot of cases, the argument is that you can only buy a limited amount of UEC in a given length of time, and that this was 'for the people that don't have the time to grind in game'...

Well, for the first point, the simple fact that you can purchase in-game currency (and therefore progression) sort of destroys the allure and pride of owning UEC. For the second point, everyone knows that's just an excuse to sell it, but taking it as a legitimate argument, I'll say that if you're short on time, buying progression in a game so that you can play it a little when you can is not fun at all, and it ruins the game for everyone else at the same time. You can't buy another queen in a chess match because you didn't have the time to think through a move and expect people to take the game seriously.

Basically, we need to fix this problem early, before it becomes anything. The backers who backed the game in hopes of a true universe, where players make their own stories, actions have consequences, and hard work is rewarded, and any money you own in this universe doesn't carry over to the next-those backers I expect will be and are disappointed in this turn and will respond and ensure their investment is still in what they thought it was.

 

 

Edit: I used p2w out of a lack of a better word.. I suppose in this case, its more pay-for-an-advantage, even though it's small, it still means they are letting a person's wallet affect in-game. For me, I think it's really less of a worry about some players having that advantage, and more that you can't look at someone without wondering if they got stuff spawned in for them.

[Riley Egret]

I agree it's P2W but for the following reason: I pay, the game gets out , I win.

About REC, Wow sells gold, BDO sells cash, most mmo do that and no one says they're p2w and even if they did, they still play because they like the game.

CIG did say as well that the amount of UEC you can buy is the equivalent of a couple of days of grind, so you won't be able to afford a Connie purely by shelling cash.

Since CIG promised that every skin/fancy light/snazzy gadget will be available in game ( or they'd take the ED route, please no) and they won't sell Javs anymore when the game goes on, what else can they reasonably sell to keep the servers running after release?

7 hours ago, Jivvy said:

Basically, we need to fix this problem early, before it becomes anything. The backers who backed the game in hopes of a true universe, where players make their own stories, actions have consequences, and hard work is rewarded, and any money you own in this universe doesn't carry over to the next-those backers I expect will be and are disappointed in this turn and will respond and ensure their investment is still in what they thought it was.

 

I understand your point about having awesome stories, but in order to have that you need to have serves up, which means there needds to be some cashwflow in a way or another.

[Chimaera]

2 hours ago, Jivvy said:

Well, for the first point, the simple fact that you can purchase in-game currency (and therefore progression) sort of destroys the allure and pride of owning UEC.

Multiple games do this as a means of making revenue while keeping the overall core game free to play. The games are alive and well, with no problems whatsoever. Examples: GW2, anything by Wargaming, World of Warcraft, EvE online, etc... 

It seems like you're focusing on a non-issue that's a feature of pretty much all games coming out that are "free" from monthly subscription fees. Would you rather that they make the game a subscription model game?

[Juntau]

If I am reading this right, it seems the major concern is that, "if you are short on time you can buy currency and therefore progression, and thats just not fun". If this is a concern, well...dont buy the currency. 

What is fun for one is not always fun for another. This goes both ways. So adding a bit of logic and reason to this argument one could say that, "being short on time and not being able to buy currency and therefore progression in an attempt to keep up with my online friends, well...just isn't fun.

Will it be abused, certainly. That what humans do. Other than that I agree that this is really a non issue.

Thank you for posting though, I'm sure you're not the only one who thinks the same. Good luck and maybe we'll see you in the verse.

[GeraldEvans]

Buying UEC in limited quantities is not P2W. If you could buy in unlimited quantities that would be the case, but CIG has said that someone playing and earning money could earn it at a much faster rate and therefore progress much faster, than someone buying UEC and being limited to the per-day cap. As those other above me have pointed out, UEC is for sale in limited quantity to allow people who are more casual, to supplement their income and progress, albeit not as quickly as their more dedicated counterparts.

So, not P2W by any stretch.  Everything in game can be earned in game without no need to have spent anything but the $60 on the game.

[Switch]

6 hours ago, Jivvy said:

Basically, we need to fix this problem early, before it becomes anything.

I feel it's something that's already under control and not "anything".

[Squirrel]

They are trying to strike a balance between people who have more time than money and people who have more money than time.  For all the players that complain that real money lets others buy some level of advancement, there are probably others that quietly quit because they 1) don't have the time to grind and 2) don't have the time to complain either.  I have quit a number of games because I don't have an endless amount of time to grind games due to work/family commitments.  But, I do have enough money to throw a couple of dozen dollars a month at a game to keep me competitive (though not to guarantee a 'win').

I think CIG's method of capping how much people can do this is a good way of keeping things from getting out of hand.  We'll have to see how it works out in practice though.  There are many things about the game that are different enough to be a giant test of ideas.  But, they need a stream of cash coming in some how to continue running the servers and fixing the bugs that will undoubtedly come up.  All online games do and they come up with different ways.  The era of a monthly subscription fee is dieing in the MMO world.  One way to look at this is that instead of saving your $15 per month, use it to buy UEC.  That is probably what I will end up doing.  But, I like that flexibility: when my budget allows, I can spend some money on a game and when I want to spend it on ice cream for the kids, I also have that option.  The choice is mine and not dictated by my desire to play the game.

[CyberianK]

It basically comes down how you define Pay2Win.

By the classic strict definition SC is Pay2Win.

• Person A pays the minimum amount of money to buy the game
• Person B pays more
• If Person B has any advantage over Person A at all so any benefit that exceeds cosmetics like skin packs then it is Pay2Win

I am OK with the CIG definition though that while you can get a head-start everything is available without money. So by their definition games like WorldOfTanks would be Pay2Win as some premium content is locked for normal players but Star Citizen is not because a Maxed out player who got everything with playtime would not be different from someone who paid money to get parts of it.

[Jivvy]

I see now. I suppose all I was saying is that when you're holding 20k UEC in your hand that you worked hours for, and the person next to you is doing the same, but he got it instantly because the devs spawned it in for him, it just doesn't feel the same. It feels like the system is being biased, I guess. I do recognize that it does help the people who are truly short on time, and I'm okay with that, but seeing as it is also sold to players who just want an advantage, it disrupts the balance. 

As to revenue, google and previously youtube have gotten nearly all of their revenue from advertisements and donations. Star Citizen has the same potential, seeing as there are already in-game ads, it is definitely possible to throw in real ads.

To players with more money than time, I don't have much to say beyond that if you want to be competitive, find some friends, and org, work smart, or if you're serious, then make time, but I believe SC will be less of a competitive game, and I wasn't too concerned about that. You can have fun how you want to, and that's what matters.

Also, I used p2w out of a lack of a better word.. I suppose in this case, its more pay-for-an-advantage, even though it's small, it still means they are letting a person's wallet affect in-game. For me, I think it's really less of a worry about some players having that advantage, and more that you can't look at someone without wondering if they got stuff spawned in for them.

The replies here have definitely been uplifting though, I'm reassured to see that the players are confident that this won't become anything more than what it is, I would just hate to see such a fantastic idea be lowered to any degree by this tradition. 

 

Edit: I'm not at all trying to be critical, don't get me wrong I think this will still be above any other game of it's genre no matter what happens here, but I think it could be just a tiny bit better if a way could be found to remove the need for this, and I want to do everything I can to help make that happen.

 

[KKillroyV2]

It's pay to get ahead, with the restriction that you can only buy a finite amount each week and there is also a cap on how much you can have pooled (Though this cap may just be pre-launch). While I understand some of these things can seem worrisome, It's not exactly giving you anything that is either impossible or incredibly difficult to earn in game.

[Donut]

36 minutes ago, KKillroyV2 said:

It's pay to get ahead

I wouldn't even say that considering 20k UEC may be earned in a few hours or a single long chain of missions. Being able to buy UEC I believe is for those with money and no time to stay current. If someone were trying to get ahead they would be spending almost $200 a week for UEC compared to those who actually play could earn even more than that in a week

If you remember the quote from 2015 I think, Chris said that if you take the value of a ship from cash and turn it into UEC, then triple it, that would be the cost of the ship in game roughly. So the base price of an Aurora is $20 right, that's 60,000 credits in game. 

[Riley Egret]

2 hours ago, Jivvy said:

I see now. I suppose all I was saying is that when you're holding 20k UEC in your hand that you worked hours for, and the person next to you is doing the same, but he got it instantly because the devs spawned it in for him, it just doesn't feel the same. It feels like the system is being biased, I guess. I do recognize that it does help the people who are truly short on time, and I'm okay with that, but seeing as it is also sold to players who just want an advantage, it disrupts the balance. 

As to revenue, google and previously youtube have gotten nearly all of their revenue from advertisements and donations. Star Citizen has the same potential, seeing as there are already in-game ads, it is definitely possible to throw in real ads.

To players with more money than time, I don't have much to say beyond that if you want to be competitive, find some friends, and org, work smart, or if you're serious, then make time, but I believe SC will be less of a competitive game, and I wasn't too concerned about that. You can have fun how you want to, and that's what matters.

Also, I used p2w out of a lack of a better word.. I suppose in this case, its more pay-for-an-advantage, even though it's small, it still means they are letting a person's wallet affect in-game. For me, I think it's really less of a worry about some players having that advantage, and more that you can't look at someone without wondering if they got stuff spawned in for them.

The replies here have definitely been uplifting though, I'm reassured to see that the players are confident that this won't become anything more than what it is, I would just hate to see such a fantastic idea be lowered to any degree by this tradition. 

 

Edit: I'm not at all trying to be critical, don't get me wrong I think this will still be above any other game of it's genre no matter what happens here, but I think it could be just a tiny bit better if a way could be found to remove the need for this, and I want to do everything I can to help make that happen.

 

I do understand your point, really ( it's been discussed quite a lot when it first came up a couple of years ago).

In the spirit of a constructive dicussion, right now we have the following infos:

-CIG won't sell ships after the PU goes live except starters and maybe some introductory packages ( for example, in my mind, a BH package with a firearm, light body armor and an Avenger)

-everything in the store about possible paint jobs, furniture and what else can be bought in game.

Given that, what would you do to ensure you ahve the money to 1) keep the server going as long as possible   2) continuously update the PU ( the solo games can pay for themselves with the sales)?

It's a more complicated question than it looks.

[Jivvy]

13 minutes ago, Riley Egret said:

Given that, what would you do to ensure you have the money to 1) keep the server going as long as possible   2) continuously update the PU ( the solo games can pay for themselves with the sales)?

I can't pretend to be knowledgeable about things like this, there are much more educated people than I in this matter, but I have seen many suggesting that real businesses can pay to have their ads featured in places, with price depending on traffic of location. On top of that, maybe players could pay real money to have their ads featured, obviously for less money if it's an in-game business... this is getting a bit complicated, but I'm positive that there is a way to raise funds without having to resort to selling game progression.

If the community doesn't have a big problem with this feature, then I guess there's not much I can do, but I was hoping that people would want to change this to incorporate something above what other mmos are currently using as a source of funds.

Well I guess that about sums it up

[ark_bird]

8 hours ago, Riley Egret said:

CIG did say as well that the amount of UEC you can buy is the equivalent of a couple of days of grind

I am heavily skeptic of this claim. A couple of days grinding... doing what? Full loads of cargo via an aurora? Or Hull-E? VIP hauling? Context matters, as can CIG's intentions over all these years of development. Just like when they decided to scale the costs of bigger ships to be much more grindier/costlier than originally intended. 

 

Also, (and this is based on quick googles that could be old/inaccurate) the daily limit of UEC purchasing is 25k, while overall limit of UEC is 150k. Which amount will be equivalent to a couple days grind? I will assume the first but without them giving actual numbers it is all speculative. 

 

4 minutes ago, Jivvy said:

Well I guess that about sums it up

As others have stated, many other games do have buying in game currency with real cash and it doesn't really affect the game. It's pay for an advantage, but skill is a major factor still, and generally its a minority who buy that advantage. You will meet them, but it is supposed to be so uncommon you can shrug it off as bad luck.

 

Especially with CIG's plans for the game where 90% of your interactions are supposed to be vs AI with only 10% being against players. (and the impossible promise that they will attempt to make them indistinguishable) Even in the most extreme example where everyone is running better gear than you (lets assume you are a new player with stock aurora) even 10% of the time meeting another player that will crush your skull in (in this situation every player you meet is a pirate too) that is still not that often when 9 out of 10 situations can be overcome successfully solely on being able to outsmart the games AI. 

 

[Riley Egret]

5 minutes ago, ark_bird said:

I am heavily skeptic of this claim. A couple of days grinding... doing what? Full loads of cargo via an aurora? Or Hull-E? VIP hauling? Context matters, as can CIG's intentions over all these years of development. Just like when they decided to scale the costs of bigger ships to be much more grindier/costlier than originally intended. 

 

Well, the devil is in the details ofc.

That being said, look at it this way: most if not all AAA mmo have a monthly subscription. I did pay my monthly to Wow, ToR, FFxiv and so on back in the days... the other option is, as far as successful games go, either to put advantages in the cash shop ( Archage) or squeeze people dry on personalization (ED or BDO).

In SC, you will hopefully have people that will play for years with all the options open to them an without paying a dime thanks to those that buy those UEC.

I agree that if can buy a conne each moth with those, it's not going to work, but that doesn't seems to be the road CR wants to take.

Otherwise, I have still to hear a realistic option about gettin some cashflow ( no, Pepsi advertising wont' cut it 5 years after the launch).

In Italy we have a saying: you can't ahve a drunk wife and a barrel full ( more or less the american "you can't have a cake and eat it too").

Either CIG has a robust cashwflow for years to allow people (us) to play SC or it will be the shortest combustion of 150.000.000 dollars ever.

As I said, I'd really like to hear about a realistic alternative.

[Boildown]

We just don't know yet.  We do know that having money or a big ship doesn't make you "win".  Small ships have advantages over large ships too.  It could very well be that a ship like an Aurora LN has the best min-max of money making per time spent playing the game, because of good enough combat capability, the ability to go through the smallest jump points, good cargo capacity, being an unprofitable target, low running expenses, low insurance rates, not splitting your profits with anyone else, etc.

The criteria of what is a "win" is poorly defined too.  The universe isn't going to be all player versus player pirates vs good guys.  Most of your combat will be PvE.  Are you winning worse or better if you defeat the same PvE opponents in a less expensive ship?  How can a game be pay to win without a proper win criteria?  What is your win criteria?  Is it the same as mine?

And finally we know that the higher tiers of components you can put in your ship will have to be earned in-game, not bought at a cash shop.  You'll have to discover who sells it and earn their trust and be in physical proximity to them before you can buy it.

Until you convince me I'm wrong about at least 2 of the above 3 points, I find it hard to call Star Citizen, pay to win.

[Fleischwolf]

16 hours ago, Jivvy said:

Well, for the first point, the simple fact that you can purchase in-game currency (and therefore progression) sort of destroys the allure and pride of owning UEC. For the second point, everyone knows that's just an excuse to sell it, but taking it as a legitimate argument, I'll say that if you're short on time, buying progression in a game so that you can play it a little when you can is not fun at all, and it ruins the game for everyone else at the same time. You can't buy another queen in a chess match because you didn't have the time to think through a move and expect people to take the game seriously.

Basically, we need to fix this problem early, before it becomes anything. The backers who backed the game in hopes of a true universe, where players make their own stories, actions have consequences, and hard work is rewarded, and any money you own in this universe doesn't carry over to the next-those backers I expect will be and are disappointed in this turn and will respond and ensure their investment is still in what they thought it was.

 

I mean, the BIG assumption here is that having lots of UEC will all but guarantee victory in a military situation. I don't think that will be the case. UEC will not make you magically win a 1v1 dogfight or allow your super-ship to become invulnerable to torpedoes.

 

But the real question is, what is a "win" in Star Citizen?

 

This game is a sand-box. A hull-B or a freelancer may be someones "end-game". The game is hoping to last for many years. Although CIG does not need to use any shady monetization practices (looking at you EA), at the end of the day they are still a business and need to cover their operating costs and provide new content. 

[Reavern]

I don't consider Star Citizen P2W because the larger and more expensive ships can be as much as a liability as a benefit. Those of us who own an Idris Frigate aren't going to automatically win against any enemy we encounter. An Idris will require several players and NPCs to operate properly, and they'll have to be paid. The Idris will be a fuel guzzler and its ammo and missiles will be very expensive. It's unclear how an Idris will earn money. I expect there will be high level combat missions specifically for cap ships that will pay enough creds to keep an Idris running. If not... cap ships will just be a $$$ pit.

Regardless if an Idris is profitable or not, it's not invincible. An Idris could easily be overwhelmed by smaller, less expensive ships, especially bombers and boarding craft. A Retaliator heavy bomber is 1/5th the price of an Idris-P and it could potentially cripple or destroy an Idris Frigate with its Size9 torpedoes. Multiple starfighters and bombers, supported by a boarding ship, like the Cutlass or Caterpillar, could disable and capture an Idris. If you added up the $$$ price of those ships, together they might not even equal an Idris.

Therefore, Star Citizen is hardly P2W because smaller, less expensive ships -- that can be earned in-game -- can overwhelm and defeat a large, expensive pledge ship.

That said, the backers who have chosen to spend $$$ on pledge ships will have an initial advantage over those who only have a Starter Ship. I consider it a head start. Buying a better pledge ship will allow players to skip the traditional entry-level grinding, which is the least fun of every progression-based game. Paying a little extra to skip that part is absolutely worthwhile IMO. That was my rationale from when I pledged for Star Citizen way back during the November 2012 Kickstarter campaign. I could've just bought a $30 Scout package that included an Aurora MR. Instead I chose to buy the $225 Rear Admiral package for the Constellation, because I knew it would enable me to skip the tedious milk run missions that the Aurora would be limited to, and perform more profitable missions from the start. Considering how much more cargo the Connie holds compared to the Aurora, it might be possible to earn enough profit from a few cargo hauling missions to afford to buy an Aurora in-game. Whereas I expect it will take dozens of hours of grinding for an Aurora owner to afford to buy a Connie. I don't want to do that.

I also wanted to pledge money to support Star Citizen's development, so I gladly paid $225. I didn't pay that money so that I'd gain a competitive advantage over other players and use my Connie to grief Starter players. Again, it's not P2W.

The only way Star Citizen might be P2W is if certain players spend $$$ on UECs. Doing that will enable them to buy higher tier weapons and components than those that are equipped by factory stock ships, regardless if they're pledge ships or purchased in-game. However, CIG has imposed a 150,000 UEC cap on UEC purchases, which limits how much backers can buy. 150,000 UECs isn't a lot of creds in-game. I think an Aurora MR is supposed to cost around 100,000 UECs and a F7C Hornet is supposed to cost 300,000 UECs. So buying 150,000 UECs for $150 isn't going to provide a significant advantage for players who try to P2W.

That said, I think we'll find out if P2W is going to be a serious problem after Alpha 3.0 is released.

[Jivvy]

Yes I agree, I had used P2W because it was a term everyone knew, it's more of, as previously stated, more pay-for-an-advantage, with the credits being purchaseable and all. And for me, and I believe many in the community, as you said, the advantage won't be huge, nor always relevant--but I think it devalues the currency, from a player's view.

 

This isn't a massive issue, I realize, but it should still be addressed.

 

Edit: I sincerely hope that cap is what you said, but as it's in early alpha, it's difficult to know the true value of UEC. That's why it's dangerous to sell it at this early stage.

[Chimaera]

7 minutes ago, Jivvy said:

That's why it's dangerous to sell it at this early stage.

This is a point I will agree on, I think sales of UEC at this early stage are premature, but it's up to CIG what they do with their product, and if they want to offer UEC for sale, and it adds more to the funding, then I'm all for it.

[Donut]

I believe UEC sales were in place because at the time, the only way to test new equipment for ships was to A. Buy a new ship, or B. Buy UEC for weapons in the store. Now that we have AUEC in 3.0 and REC since 2.whatever, buying UEC at this point is redundant. However, removing it now would make a whole new chapter of drama just like the Redeemer, and that's the last thing we need. All we can do is ignore it or buy it ourselves and hold onto it. I hope that eventually subscribers are rewarded with monthly UEC instead of REC, or even both. At this point subscribers really get the short end of the stick and we're the one footing the bill on all of these community shows. 

[Painmiester]

Just let them developed the process.the structure  and the content , and wait and see what happens.

I for one travel and am away from the gaming  compurer 15-60 days at a time.and there for the grind would become another job. I don't mind digging in but to play catch up is not fun and we all been there at one time or another and yer friends move on if your slow. 

So and if your gone.away how do you use the daily limit...you cant...

Where will you have the cash,UEE to pay for the fighter  cover if salvaging or mining.or how will that group pay you to fly cover. T h e money trail could  be delayed a few hrs,/days 

..and at this point its Avance  crafting is moot. But it keeps us active.

 

[Snakebyte]

SC isn't a competitive PvP game, so P2W isn't relevant, unless you complain that NPCs having better ships and equipment is P2W! SC is a complex PvE game that will have a limited PvP element, but it will be much less then people seem to realise. It is not Eve 2 and was never advertised as such.

There are also conflicting definitions of P2W:

1. Can obtain something for cash that is not available in game.
2. Can obtain something faster than other players (this is the contentious one, as the time period determines if it is P2W or not.
3. You have something I don't have that you bought, even though I can get it in game.

[KKillroyV2]

2 hours ago, Snakebyte said:

SC isn't a competitive PvP game, so P2W isn't relevant, unless you complain that NPCs having better ships and equipment is P2W! SC is a complex PvE game that will have a limited PvP element, but it will be much less then people seem to realise. It is not Eve 2 and was never advertised as such.

There are also conflicting definitions of P2W:

1. Can obtain something for cash that is not available in game.
2. Can obtain something faster than other players (this is the contentious one, as the time period determines if it is P2W or not.
3. You have something I don't have that you bought, even though I can get it in game.

How is star citizen not a competitive fps game? I understand that there will be many more AI than players but considering how popular combat is going to be in this game I'd very much expect pvp to be rife

[GeraldEvans]

Because FPS combat is incidental to gameplay. There will be Star Marine e-sports, but the purpose of the game isn't to fight each other. Fighting each other may happen.