Aegis Eclispe

[Reavern]

10 hours ago, J. Coren said:

Or the bext best thing, The Klingon Bird of Prey strategy: Cloak, zero in on target, decloak, fire of ordinance, then run and cloak again without bothering to raise shields.

Translated to SC, that would be turning off everything but passive sensors, powering on, firing off its torpedoes, then kicking in the afterburner and cutting engines to disappear into space again.

2

I own an Eclipse and am eager to fly it, but I don't think it's going to be that simple or easy. I hope it won't.

I've fought against Hornet Ghosts in AC and, although the stealth game mechanics are simplified, it was difficult to track on sensors sometimes. I could only lock on to the Ghost at close range when it was firing or engaging afterburner. But I was able to track it visually and eye-ball my shots without the PIP. So it is possible.

I expect the same will be true with the Eclipse.

If the Eclipse stealth torpedoes a solo cap ship, the cap ship probably won't be able to track the Eclipse. But if the cap ship is escorted by interceptors, like it should be, they could zero in on the Eclipse's probable location and visually scan for it. As you said, the Eclipse would be coasting at max velocity to escape and minimize its IR signature, which means it would be flying in a straight line. It would also have taken several seconds to 'burn to max velocity, during which time the Eclipse would've been detectable. If the interceptors were on the ball, they'd know approximately where the Eclipse was and its direction of travel. It shouldn't be difficult for them to track it down, especially if there are multiple interceptors on the hunt.

It'll be a cat and mouse game, which is exactly how it should be. It's about balance. The Eclipse stealth bomber could potentially stealth kill a cap ship, which is larger, more expensive, and has dozens of crew aboard. However, a properly defended cap ship could counter stealth bombers, resulting in numerous Eclipses getting shredded by interceptors, which cost a lot less than the Eclipse. It's a good example of why Star Citizen isn't P2W because it's possible for the more expensive ships in the game to be taken down by less expensive ships. Smart tactics, experience, communication, and vigilance should matter more than who has the biggest or fanciest ship.

It's going to be a fun challenge to learn how to use my Eclipse effectively to take down big juicy targets. I don't want it to be easy.

[LeroyJenkins]

@Reavern I'm hoping the simple version is a bit like playing a destroyer in WoWs. There's a maximum range at which you can be detected while not firing and your torpedoes slightly exceed that range - the drawback is that if the enemy ship can detect your torpedoes at or near the edge of their scanner range, they probably have enough time to avoid them. 

Of course, different torpedoes and different scanners will have an effect on that. I personally hope they have dumbfire variants that have a smaller signature than guided ordinance but a larger payload.

[Shifty]

From the latest RTV

 

Cockpit visibility looks extremly bad with all the metal plating around it.

[LeroyJenkins]

@Shifty It won't be a particularly fast or agile craft to begin with. Most of its defense is in scan diffusion tech, with some decent armor to back it up. TBH i think you'll be flying it with shields down most of the time to hide your signature too. I don't think subpar cockpit visibility (from a dogfighter's perspective) will be a concern. You'll be looking at instruments and HUD most of the time anyways, so you're aware of distances and scan ranges and other stuff that's been speculated about how stealth bombers will operate.

[Shifty]

Stealth isn´t an excuse to artificially limit the cockpit view. The Sabre has a good cockpit view and it´s supposed to be a stealth craft. Can´t find any metal plates directly infront of the face of the pilot there. Knowing CIG the pilot will sit so low he can´t even look through the side windows.

[Brightmist]

Does Aegis even have a ship with a bad cockpit view, I doubt this will be any different.

[LeroyJenkins]

@Shifty The sabre is also a dogfighter, so it's necessary there.
If you're going to spend 80% of your time on target staring at instruments, slightly lower cockpit visibility isn't an issue. It's similar to how a tank pilot has fairly limited visibility and needs to rely on sensors and other instruments to navigate. It won't be quite that extreme in the Eclipse, but some of that ideology will carry over. The cockpit will have enough visibility to allow for maneuvering without sensors, but for the precision you need on a bombing run you'll need to use them.

If visibility is good enough for you to see where you're going if you need to scramble for an exit, that's enough.

[Shifty]

My fear ist just that this metal plate infront of the instruments results in another Cutlass 2.0 like cockpit.
Where you can´t see the horizon or whatever is infront of you. That things cockpit is horrendusly bad, to the point where flying it is not fun.

[Reavern]

3 hours ago, Shifty said:

My fear ist just that this metal plate infront of the instruments results in another Cutlass 2.0 like cockpit.
Where you can´t see the horizon or whatever is infront of you. That things cockpit is horrendusly bad, to the point where flying it is not fun.

I agree that the Cutlass Black Rework has terrible cockpit visibility. The radar and MFDs start are only a few pixels below the gun sight and cover the entire lower half of the cockpit view.

I share the concern that the Eclipse's cockpit might have the same problem because the cockpit canopy is so low and on a shallow angle, causing a narrow forward view. The view out of the sides actually seems better than the front, which makes no sense.

I know the Eclipse is a stealth bomber, not a dogfighter, and it isn't expected to be fast or agile. Regardless, the Eclipse pilot needs to see forward. That's kinda important in any ship.  If the front view is cut in half by its instrument panel, that's a serious problem. The assumption that Eclipse pilots will rely on instruments to fly and bomb targets is a baseless assumption. Every guided missile or torpedo alerts the targeted ship's missile warning system, which will alert the enemy to the presence of a hostile ship, even if they can't detect the Eclipse on their sensors. The ship will know a torpedo has locked on and is incoming. Perhaps the Eclipse can mount "stealth torpedoes" or set its torpedoes to launch unguided, arm themselves after a certain time or distance, acquire a target lock, and strike the target. But we can't assume the Eclipse will have "magic" torpedoes.

A more realistic tactic that should work, regardless of what torpedoes the Eclipse can equip, will be for the Eclipse to line up for a torpedo run, power down its shields and lasers to minimize its EM signature, accelerate slowly and then decouple its engines at maximum velocity to minimize its IR signature, and coast toward the target ship under minimal power. The Eclipse pilot will eyeball their target and launch dumb-fire torpedoes at <2000 metres. If the Eclipse has poor cockpit visibility, it could be difficult to manually aim the torpedoes -- and it'll be difficult already if it's a moving target.

That is why it's a serious concern if the Eclipse has poor forward visibility. If the Eclipse's forward visibility is as bad as the Cutlass Black Rework then Eclipse owners, like me, will be justifiably PO'd!

[Donut]

Cockpit views are a bug just fyi

[Reavern]

2 minutes ago, Donut said:

Cockpit views are a bug just fyi

1

I can imagine the designers of a WWII plane or tank having a similarly dismissive attitude to crew complaints of poor visibility in their war machines. "The plane's cockpit doesn't have poor visibility, the pilot just isn't sitting far enough forward. He should have his eyes pressed up against the front window. Then he'll have an unobstructed view!" 

Regardless if it's a bug with the "offset" of the pilot's 1st-person camera view, CIG needs to fix it! And if the bug occurs for multiple ships, like the Cutlass and Razor, it's entirely possible the Eclipse will have the same problem. Whatever the cause is for poor cockpit visibility, CIG needs to fix the problem.

[LeroyJenkins]

@Reavern@Shifty I understand where you're coming from, but being 2000m from an Idris is too damn close. Thats dogfighting range. You'll need your instruments to gauge how close you can get without being spotted. It's hardly baseless to say your targeting computer will demand most of your attention when you need to know how strong the enemy's sensors are and whether or not your ir/em signature is large enough to be detected. You'll need to be watching the target's velocity and trajectory for dumbfire ordinance, you'll need to know if their shields are focused on a certain face, and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking about. Visual target acquisition  will not provide most of that information.

 

To clarify, the three signatures scanners will detect are EM, IR, and CS.

Cross-sectional will be the least of your worries as a stealth bomber. They have small cross-sections and scan diffusing armor. If something is close enough to identify you with a CS scan, you're probably screwed. Your primary concern will be the other two signatures.

You'll need to be aware of your EM and IR output at all times, probably dedicating one of your main HUD elements to tracking your output on those spectra. Hopefully there is a way to have your avionics give you a rough estimate of detection range based on the scanner it detects on the other ship. Your primary concern will be managing your signature and gauging detection range, both of which require significant attention on your sensors.

[Donut]

2 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I can imagine the designers of a WWII plane or tank having a similarly dismissive attitude to crew complaints of poor visibility in their war machines. "The plane's cockpit doesn't have poor visibility, the pilot just isn't sitting far enough forward. He should have his eyes pressed up against the front window. Then he'll have an unobstructed view!" 

Regardless if it's a bug with the "offset" of the pilot's 1st-person camera view, CIG needs to fix it! And if the bug occurs for multiple ships, like the Cutlass and Razor, it's entirely possible the Eclipse will have the same problem. Whatever the cause is for poor cockpit visibility, CIG needs to fix the problem.

It will get fixed. It's an issue with the old character model. They're not meshing well with the new heads. 

As for the Eclipse, I believe it will naturally have a terrible view. Bombers relay on radar and MFD's, which is the approach I believe they're taking for ships that don't need to weave in and out.

[J. Coren]

2 minutes ago, Donut said:

It will get fixed. It's an issue with the old character model. They're not meshing well with the new heads. 

As for the Eclipse, I believe it will naturally have a terrible view. Bombers relay on radar and MFD's, which is the approach I believe they're taking for ships that don't need to weave in and out.

This.

Bomber pilots do everything by instrument, so unless you're in an asteroid field and need to confirm you're not going to run into something there isn't really a need to have a clear view.

[Donut]

Honestly I wish the Eclipse was all MFD and relied on scanners. We need some ships without windows, and the Eclipse would have been perfect.

[J. Coren]

32 minutes ago, Donut said:

Honestly I wish the Eclipse was all MFD and relied on scanners. We need some ships without windows, and the Eclipse would have been perfect.

I would hedge my bets on there being a large "submarine" class of ship in the future that might make use of this concept in the far future after stealth and sensor gameplay is fairly fleshed out. Something akin to the Protogen Stealth Corvette.

[Reavern]

17 hours ago, LeroyJenkins said:

@Reavern@Shifty I understand where you're coming from, but being 2000m from an Idris is too damn close. Thats dogfighting range. You'll need your instruments to gauge how close you can get without being spotted. It's hardly baseless to say your targeting computer will demand most of your attention when you need to know how strong the enemy's sensors are and whether or not your ir/em signature is large enough to be detected. You'll need to be watching the target's velocity and trajectory for dumbfire ordinance, you'll need to know if their shields are focused on a certain face, and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking about. Visual target acquisition  will not provide most of that information.

 

To clarify, the three signatures scanners will detect are EM, IR, and CS.

Cross-sectional will be the least of your worries as a stealth bomber. They have small cross-sections and scan diffusing armor. If something is close enough to identify you with a CS scan, you're probably screwed. Your primary concern will be the other two signatures.

You'll need to be aware of your EM and IR output at all times, probably dedicating one of your main HUD elements to tracking your output on those spectra. Hopefully there is a way to have your avionics give you a rough estimate of detection range based on the scanner it detects on the other ship. Your primary concern will be managing your signature and gauging detection range, both of which require significant attention on your sensors.

7

I think <2000 metres will be the launch range for dumb-fire torpedoes. I doubt most players could reliably score hits with dumb-fire torpedoes against moving cap ships at greater than 2000 metres. I know that 2000 metres is dogfighting and gun turret range, but the Eclipse is a stealth bomber. If the pilot does everything right, the Eclipse shouldn't be detected. The Eclipse should blindside the cap ship with its torpedoes and then glide right by. The cap ship crew wouldn't know what hit them.

The Eclipse would launch the dumb-fire torpedoes at around 2000 metres, but it would continue gliding toward the target cap ship after it launched its ordinance. If the Eclipse stopped or radically changed course, the IR signature of its thrusters could be detected. The Eclipse should strafe while gliding in decoupled flight mode with its main thrusters at 0%, just enough to avoid colliding with the target cap ship -- and the proximity detonations from the exploding torpedoes. The Eclipse would basically perform a stealthy fly-by of the enemy cap ship, passing only a few hundred metres from it. Then it would continue glding away from the cap ship and wouldn't power up its engines until 5000+ metres.

It will certainly be a nerve-wracking experience for the Eclipse pilot because the bomber's shields would be down to minimize its EM signature. If a turret gunner on the enemy cap ship or an interceptor pilot visually spotted the stealth bomber as it glided by, the Eclipse would be a sitting duck. But that'll go with the territory for stealth bombing. I think it'll be exhilirating TBH and I look forward to it.

What you mentioned about the Eclipse pilot having to monitor their instruments and focus on their targeting computer is true, but those activities will be taken care of earlier in the torpedo run. When the Eclipse reaches 2000 metres to target, it's crossed the point of no return, and the pilot's only concern will be aiming and launching the torpedoes. Even if the Eclipse was detected by the cap ship or interceptors, it would be too late, for all involved.

The Eclipse is committed; if it's detected, it doesn't matter if it launches the torpedoes or not, the enemy knows its there and will do everything they can to destroy it. The Eclipse's only hope is to launch torpedoes and hope they hit their marks and create enough chaos and confusion to mask its getaway. The cap ship would only have a matter of seconds to react to the attacking Eclipse. It would be virtually impossible to shoot down the Eclipse before it launched its torpedoes. After it did, the cap ship's focus would be evading and shooting down the incoming torpedoes, not destroying the Eclipse. Same with the interceptors. Even if the Eclipse flew right past an enemy interceptor, nearly colliding with it, human reaction time would make it virtually impossible for the interceptor to destroy the unshielded the Eclipse before it launched its torpedoes. After launch, the interceptor's priority will be to save the cap ship by shooting down the torpedoes. The Eclipse will be treated to a front-row seat as the torpedoes impact the cap ship, then it should make a B-line for the exit. If it's already been detected, it should power-up all its subsystems and execute a quantum jump ASAP to escape.

Unless the interceptors or an escorting picket ship are equipped with quantum jammers, the Eclipse will probably be able to jump away before they can chase it down and destroy it.

My point is that this attack profile of launching unguided torpedoes from an Eclipse stealth bomber will at the very least require a combination of visual flying and aiming, and instrumentation navigation, but it should also be possible for Eclipse pilots to just "wing it" by eyeballing the enemy cap ship and firing away. Therefore, the Eclipse's cockpit view is important.

I definitely don't think that the Eclipse should be a windowless design or operate like an attack submarine. The Eclipse only has a single pilot/bombadier, so it's not analogous to submarine warfare, which involves a whole crew of people working together to navigate, track and attack enemy ships while remaining undetected.

[LeroyJenkins]

51 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I think <2000 metres will be the launch range for dumb-fire torpedoes. I doubt most players could reliably score hits with dumb-fire torpedoes against moving cap ships at greater than 2000 metres. I know that 2000 metres is dogfighting and gun turret range, but the Eclipse is a stealth bomber. If the pilot does everything right, the Eclipse shouldn't be detected. The Eclipse should blindside the cap ship with its torpedoes and then glide right by. The cap ship crew wouldn't know what hit them.

I would never want to be that close to anything in an Eclipse.

If you can get a signature lock on an enemy fighter at 5-6km (typical range in Vanduul Swarm, although IIRC you can get signature locks at 8-10km) it's safe to assume that capital ships will be able to see farther than that. They'll have stronger avionics. Meaning that even a small signature will be detectable at extreme ranges. Fighters will probably be on an Idris's sensors at 20-25km if they're not trying to hide.

Also, how fast do you think a capital ship will be? I think they'd be too fast at 100m/s. Also consider inertia - that's a LOT of mass to accelerate, changing course on a capital ship will take time. Guided missiles move at what, 400-500m/s? Either way with dumbfires you'll have (if we don't get it there's no point to dumbfires) telemetry from your avionics to "eyeball" the trajectory.

51 minutes ago, Reavern said:

The Eclipse would launch the dumb-fire torpedoes at around 2000 metres, but it would continue gliding toward the target cap ship after it launched its ordinance. If the Eclipse stopped or radically changed course, the IR signature of its thrusters could be detected. The Eclipse should strafe while gliding in decoupled flight mode with its main thrusters at 0%, just enough to avoid colliding with the target cap ship -- and the proximity detonations from the exploding torpedoes. The Eclipse would basically perform a stealthy fly-by of the enemy cap ship, passing only a few hundred metres from it. Then it would continue glding away from the cap ship and wouldn't power up its engines until 5000+ metres.

You're not getting anywhere within 1000m of an Idris without being detected, mate. CS scans will pick you up at that point. There's gonna be a certain range at which you can't avoid being detected because there have to be hard limits on stealth. An Eclipse is gonna be the kinda ship that stays at or near its maximum attack range if it can help it.

You seem to think that stealth will work enough like EVE that you can be that close to something and not be detected. I don't think that's going to be the case. It would kinda defeat the purpose of having an advanced scanner suite and beefy avionics in your C&C center. Stealth will be skill-based (like they've been saying every aspect of operating a ship will be) - you'll need to be monitoring your EM/IR output, your distance to enemy ships, and making adjustments to be sure that you're not showing up on the enemy's sensors. And you'll be doing that at all stages of a bombing run, up until you quantum out. And spooling your quantum drive takes less time than burning out. That 4-5 seconds is fast enough that if you're at the range you should be keeping they can't even get a missile lock on you.

 

[Shifty]

I´m with Reavern here.
Shooting a torpedo at 20+ KM range is kind of ineffective and boring. First it´ll get blown out of the emptiness of space before it´s even close and second it´s again not fun. This is a game after all. The closer you are to your target the less time your target has to react to your actions. Also it´s more dangerous to the stealth craft itself but this balances out "risk and reward".

Also scanning is not just a passive thing like it is now. It will also have an active gameplay element where the scanning crew has to identify objects against background noise and identify and detect potential threats by investigating signature traces. Maybe you can´t get a full lock and communicate the last know signature trace position to your patrols.

The fluffy sales text of the Eclipse also promotes a " state-of-the-art scan diffusing technology" so a cross section scan should be hard to achieve unless you are close enough to the target and somebody is actively looking for you (or you are not showing the smallest cross section possible).

It should not be easy to stay stealthy but it should also not be easy to track a dedicated stealth craft through passive sensors and scanning.
 

[LeroyJenkins]

@Shifty I'm not saying you'll be at 20+km as a stealth bomber. More likely 3-5km. Even at that range your torpedoes will only be in transit for about 5-8 seconds. That's still a really small window to react.

And yes, your scanners will be passive on a stealth craft. That's how modern military stealth fighters work. They use passive scanners that detect enemies by way of incoming signals, and emit nothing.

I'm aware that the Eclipse will have scan-diffusing technology, but there has to be a hard limit on how close you can get to something without being detected. The stronger the sensor suite, the longer that range is.

[Shifty]

2 minutes ago, LeroyJenkins said:

@Shifty I'm not saying you'll be at 20+km as a stealth bomber. More likely 3-5km. Even at that range your torpedoes will only be in transit for about 5-8 seconds. That's still a really small window to react.

And yes, your scanners will be passive on a stealth craft. That's how modern military stealth fighters work. They use passive scanners that detect enemies by way of incoming signals, and emit nothing.

I'm aware that the Eclipse will have scan-diffusing technology, but there has to be a hard limit on how close you can get to something without being detected. The stronger the sensor suite, the longer that range is.

The Scanning part was more ment to explain potential scanning gameplay for your target not the stealth craft itself.
3-5 km is also the range I imagine the "combat" to take place in, I also agree on the "dynamic hard limit" to stealth. (Dynamicly impacted by the targets sensor/scanning suite and the skill of the scan operator).

[LeroyJenkins]

Most S1-4 weapons can't land hits past 2.5km. So most combat will be in the 500-2000m range.

[Reavern]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:57 PM, Shifty said:

I´m with Reavern here.
Shooting a torpedo at 20+ KM range is kind of ineffective and boring. First it´ll get blown out of the emptiness of space before it´s even close and second it´s again not fun. This is a game after all. The closer you are to your target the less time your target has to react to your actions. Also it´s more dangerous to the stealth craft itself but this balances out "risk and reward".

Also scanning is not just a passive thing like it is now. It will also have an active gameplay element where the scanning crew has to identify objects against background noise and identify and detect potential threats by investigating signature traces. Maybe you can´t get a full lock and communicate the last know signature trace position to your patrols.

The fluffy sales text of the Eclipse also promotes a " state-of-the-art scan diffusing technology" so a cross section scan should be hard to achieve unless you are close enough to the target and somebody is actively looking for you (or you are not showing the smallest cross section possible).

It should not be easy to stay stealthy but it should also not be easy to track a dedicated stealth craft through passive sensors and scanning.
 

5

I agree that launching torpedoes at 20+ km range will probably be boring and ineffective... but I think it should be an option. I don't think that "over the horizon" combat should be excluded from Star Citizen. It should exist, as long as it's balanced.

The scenario that I described was an Eclipse stealth bomber launching unguided torpedoes at an enemy capital ship. That's the main reason I chose <2000 metres range. I expect that accuracy will be a problem with unguided torpedoes at greater than 2000 metres. The distinct advantage of the Eclipse is that it's a stealth bomber that can get close to its target and not be detected, thereby increasing its accuracy.

The Eclipse, or any other bomber, could launch guided torpedoes at 2000+ metres, but they'd presumably trigger the enemy cap ship's missile/torpedo early warning systems and alert the enemy that they're under attack. That would defeat the purpose of using a stealth bomber.

I agree that the Eclipse's "scan diffusing technology" should render it undetectable to passive sensors, even the more advanced and powerful sensor suites used by cap ships or the Terapin or Hornet Tracker.

On 5/7/2018 at 1:17 PM, LeroyJenkins said:

I'm aware that the Eclipse will have scan-diffusing technology, but there has to be a hard limit on how close you can get to something without being detected. The stronger the sensor suite, the longer that range is.

2

I disagree because, if that were true, it would render the Esperia Prowler stealth boarding craft completely useless. The Prowler is designed to approach a cap ship by stealth and deploy a boarding party undetected. The Prowler cannot do that if it's impossible to approach a cap ship undetected. It would be impractical for a Prowler to deploy boarders EVA at 1000+ metres from a moving cap ship. It has to get closer than that. I think 200 metres would be the maximum distance the Prowler could be from the cap ship and have the EVA boarders reach the cap ship. The closer the better for the boarders. It doesn't appear that the Prowler is designed to latch onto the cap ship's hull or dock with it because the Prowler doesn't have a docking collar. It doesn't appear to have any means of adhering to the hull to unload boarders directly onto the ship -- unlike the Cutlass Black with the "Pirate Pack" that includes a docking collar and cutting rig (but that was way back in 2013 and the Cutlass Black Rework has removed the circular hatch in the cargo hold's floor that was supposedly used for the cutting rig and docking collar). So the Prowler probably can't land on a cap ship, but I'm certain it can get extremely close to it undetected.

That's why I believe passive sensors won't be able to detect stealth ships.

I believe that active scanning/sweeping will be a different story. I'm certain that active scanners will detect stealth ships if they focus on the stealth ship's direction and it's within a certain range. I think there will be varying levels of detection. For example, if a cap ship focuses an active "scanner cone" on a stealth ship at <3000 metres, it will be lit up and identified as a stealth ship. At 3000-6000 metres , the stealth ship will be detected as some sort of solid object in space, but it won't be apparent what it is. If the Eclipse was lurking in an asteroid field it would be one object amongst dozens or hundreds. If the Eclipse was clinging to a large asteroid or the side of a space station, an active scanner couldn't differentiate it from the larger object so it wouldn't be detected. At 6000+ metres, an active scanner couldn't detect a stealth ship -- unless it did something stupid, like fire its energy weapons or engage its afterburner.

That's how I believe that active scanners versus stealth ships will work. If a cap ship has a vigilant (and lucky) scanner operator, they might detect an Eclipse when it gets close. But if the Eclipse keeps its distance and masks its signatures, it will be virtually invisible. Otherwise it's pointless as a stealth craft.

On 5/7/2018 at 1:17 PM, LeroyJenkins said:

@Shifty I'm not saying you'll be at 20+km as a stealth bomber. More likely 3-5km. Even at that range your torpedoes will only be in transit for about 5-8 seconds. That's still a really small window to react.

2

I don't think Size9 torpedoes are that fast. In this video, a stationary Retaliator fires a torpedo at a stationary Hornet only 500 metres away. The torpedo launches at 1:43 and the explosion is heard at 1:48 and the target disappears, presumably destroyed. The Hornet is 500 metres away and it took 5 seconds to reach it, so that's approx. 100 m/s.

I know that acceleration is a factor, but math isn't my strong suit so I can't calculate the acceleration of the torpedo. Perhaps it takes 5+ seconds for the torpedo to reach its maximum velocity, which could be 1000 m/s. I doubt it, but who knows?

Quote

The Polaris uses torpedoes. Can you tell us how torpedo combat will work? How will we use torpedoes in Star Citizen?

Torpedoes will essentially have the same gameplay functionality as Missiles, with the Retaliator being an example. The main difference will be the properties of the Torpedo itself, being a larger scale you can expect it to have a lower top speed and maneuverability, but packing more damage per hit on a larger radius.

 

In your example, you said it would take a torpedo 5-8 seconds to travel 3000-5000 metres. 3000 metres in 5 seconds would be 600 m/s -- again, not accounting for acceleration, which would mean to reach the target in 5 seconds its top speed would have to be much higher, perhaps 1200 m/s. I think that's faster than missiles. I don't believe torpedoes will travel that fast.

I think if a bomber launches a guided torpedo at 5000 metres, it will immediately alert the targeted cap ship's torpedo early warning system and it will take 15-20 seconds for the torpedo to reach its target. I think that's sufficient time for the cap ship to react to the torpedo alert, launch countermeasures, and for gunners to swing their turrets into position and open fire -- as long as the gunners were already in their seats when the alert sounded.

That is the scenario I imagine for non-stealth bombers and ships launching guided torpedoes. It probably won't have a high success rate. I believe that's the way CR wants it.

Dating back to the early days, CR said that he wanted capital ship combat to involve combined arms. He didn't want a realistic combat scenario wherein a submarine-launched torpedo or aircraft-launched anti-ship missile can sink a battleship in one shot. CR described capital ship combat as a slugging match between two opposing cap ships, with fighters and bombers in support. The cap ship would use its heavy weapons to sap the enemy cap's shields until at least one shield facing collapsed, opening up a hole. The fighters would then strafe the warship and destroy its point-defenses, countermeasures, and shield gens to expose a soft spot. Finally, bombers would roll in and deliver the coup de grace with multiple torpedoes. The starfighter battle would be about destroying the enemy's bombers and protecting your own, so they're still around at the end to take the finishing shot on the cap ship. That's basically what CR said.

That's why I don't think torpedoes will be fast. They're supposed to be vulnerable to interception. That's why stealth bombers are necessary. They can get close enough to the enemy cap ship to launch their torpedoes with little to no warning and blind-side the enemy. But they'll be balanced too.

A blind-side torpedo strike probably won't cripple a shielded Idris, even if all three Size9 torpedoes hit. I think the Idris' shields are strong enough to withstand 3 torpedoes without being crippled. I think the shields would collapse on the quadrant struck by the torpedoes; if there were gun turrets or ship weapons on that side they'd probably be destroyed; and the hull might be breached. However, I think the Idris would survive and still be operational. A second Eclipse would be required, launching a 3-torpedo volley immediately after the first salvo hit. The second torpedo volley would pass through the hole in the frigate's defenses and cripple the cap ship.

On 5/7/2018 at 3:40 PM, LeroyJenkins said:

Most S1-4 weapons can't land hits past 2.5km. So most combat will be in the 500-2000m range.

Yes, that's why an Eclipse launching unguided torpedoes at <2000 metres range will be balanced. If the Eclipse pilot does everything right, they'll score a perfect blind-side torpedo strike on the enemy cap ship. However, if the Eclipse pilot screws up during the torpedo run and is detected before launch, the stealth bomber will probably get shredded by the cap ship's PD turrets or enemy interceptors.

If the Eclipse launches unguided torpedoes at >2000 metres, accuracy will be a problem. The Eclipse pilot/bombadier would have to be very skilled to hit a moving cap ship with unguided torpedoes at ~5000 metres. That inherent difficulty will ensure balance. At 5000 metres, the Eclipse will be out of range of the cap ship's PD weapons so if the pilot screws up and gets detected, they can abort and escape. If the Eclipse launches guided torpedoes at 5000+ metres, there's a good chance they'd be intercepted, if the enemy is on the ball.

It's all about balance.

[Shifty]

Totaly unnecessary, totaly obstructed.

[VoA]

55 minutes ago, Shifty said:

Totaly unnecessary, totaly obstructed.

Sorry but I think this is a HUGE mis-perception of many players (the ones that want the bubble canopies with no rails on every ship ....- like the Prospector or 600i = makes sense on those ships because they are not meant to see combat)

The Eclipse is not meant to Dog-Fight so you don't need high visibility...... and having more hull to protect the pilot (and to hide the glow of the instruments) is FAR more important than visibility for a Carrier based bomber that is meant to go after large targets (thus a Gladiator has greater justification for more visibility than an Eclipse) - hopefully others will get this.... we'll see......

Note some ships have retractable armor that protects the pilot (but even this doesn't make sense on a Stealth Bomber)

It is kind of like the crowd that wants every ship to be modular.... gesh....