Star Citizen: Subscriber's Town Hall - Flight Balance Changes

[VoA]

See Vid.... (think the flight balance change is one of the bigger things we have seen in recent updates) - what do you think?

 

[Donut]

Relay Transcript

Spoiler

TL;DR (Too Long; Didn't Read)

Today's show featured Lead Technical Designer John Crewe, and Technical Designer Andy Nicholson.

With regards to interdiction, cargo ships won't be able to necessarily escape via higher top speed as they want players to take advantage of escorts and use them when venturing into more dangerous areas of space. Also carrier borne ships won't be interdicting without support as they're designed for short range so players in a Hornet or of the like ship will need support ships to refuel them if they want to be able to catch anyone.

Mouse versus keyboard balance is ongoing, but it's important to remember that mice are inherently better at aiming, while joysticks at flying so certain input devices will be natively better at something, but worse at others.

Mult-crew ships in AC won't happen until they get Multi-crew lobbies ingame as flying a connie without a crew isn't as fun.

 

Summary

• The show is live! Hosting today is Jared Huckaby, and from the U.K. Studio, specifically the ship balance team: John Crewe, Lead Technical Designer and Tech Designer, Andy Nicholson.

• [Will Capital ships have capabilities for BVR, Beyond Visual Range] Yes. It exists in game as most targets you can lock onto initially are barely a pixel to you. As the ships get bigger, the range in which they can lock on gets bigger. This will also bring game play to ships like the terrapin or similarly equipped to relay targets to the larger ships.

  • An idea is maybe around 50km

• [Will Cargo ships be able to achieve a higher top speed, but slower acceleration, or will pilots be forced to self destruct to avoid being intercepted by an interdictor] No. The way they want the game play to be for cargo haulers to an extent is like the navy where your bigger ships are slower and vulnerable, but have escorts. So if you wanted to go into a less secure space, you have a risk versus reward and whether or not you want to pay for the extra escorts.

  • Also when the PU expands greatly, some of the ships you encounter won't be there without support like carrier borne fighters like the Hornet, Gladiator, Gladius, etc because their range is short. So unless they have a refuelling ship nearby, stay close to certain areas or fly a long range fighter(but that comes with its disadvantages) You can find a way to figure out which lanes are safe and which aren't.

• [Is decoupled EVA a reality in the games future?] Yes it will happen, the current system doesn't seem very fluid when it comes to aiming and certain situations so it's something being worked on.

  • Related, they're also talking about making fps heads decoupled to where you can aim, but also move your head like in Arma.

• [Can we please have weapon groupings back in game] Where did it go? Perhaps it's broken in certain ships? No intention to be removed if it was.

• [As larger or medium ships have greatly reduced agility and speed, is this based on their capacity being full or empty?] They've been basing it off of a capacity that's full or close to it. So performance will be better empty, but they're still tweaking things. They want the end result for ships to still feel weighty.

  • The IFCS will restrict ships to a safe speed, but some ships will have an extra boost you can use, but Starfarers will not be as nimble as M50s

• [Given that Constellations are flyable by Pirates later on in Pirate Swarm, will players be able to fly them in AC soon?] The reason why they're not in is because they need a way to properly load in people onto the same ship as the Constellation is about mutli-crew gameplay as are other ships, but once multi-crew lobbies are a thing, then it will be in.

• [When considering changes to flight models, is shifting attention from gimbles and turrets to flying the ship, what has been done to achieve that?] With changes to boost and g-force changes, that has given ships the ability to be nimble, but still chase ships. Weapon has played a part in that as well for 2.6.1.

  • Initially 2.6 didn't have acceleration times fast enough, so they adjusted that for 2.6.1

• [Many of us feel with pilots flying ships with mouse versus joystick has taken away from what the game was originally pitched to be. What steps are being taken to remedy that?] Well neither is better than each other. Joysticks have advantages as do Mice. For aiming, the mouse is better because that's what a mouse is designed for, but HOTAS is generally better at flying. They don't want to gimp one control scheme for another because they want people to only use a certain control scheme.

  • You could play Wing Commander with a mouse and keyboard even back in the day, even a SNES controller. In the end they don't want one scheme to be "Best" overall because they want to support a variety of devices, but they'll take steps to ensure they're balanced as best as they can.

• [When will gameplay users get some love?] They're looking into it! They know it's not where they want it to be, but it's a difficult battle to figure how to keep controllers aligned with the other inputs. It's possible there might be a separate control scheme, but they're working on making a solid default setup first.

• [Currently the Xi'An scout isn't matching the description it was given as the nimble, race winning fighter, when will it be brought to it's proper advertisement?] For racing maybe a slightly higher SCM speed, but it's agility it's quite good and where they want it. They know there's an issue with weapons in it and the targeting makes it difficult to hit, but they'll resolve that. Also with racing the tracks were designed before the Scout came into the game.

• [What's the difference between double clicking and a two key press?] They need more code support to enable better customisation to be able to have keys being a modifier and then having action keys. It's something they'll try to figure and update down the line.

• That's the end of the show for today. Check out ATV on Thursday and Friday featuring the RSI museum with Ben Lesnick. Also questions are still being taken from subscribers for the 10 for the Chairman episode coming up.

 

[CyberianK]

deleted the duplicate thread @VoA

 

On topic some peoples might know that I have pretty strong opinions on this. I try to keep it mostly out of SCB and TS and calm myself with breathing exercises else I would ramble about it all day long.

Basically my opinion is that the current space combat gameplay is total shit and has been since AC came to be and I think it needs a major rework from the grounds up which is unfortunately not happening. Also the game has moved away from its original promise to reinvigorate the SpaceSim genre it is currently an Arcade Shooter in the tradition of Freelancer instead of a game in WC tradition. More explanations and details and sophisticated explanations can be found here: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/interactive-mode-gimbal-control-issue (upvoting the spectrum thread is hugely appreciated)

That said my love for the game is still strong else I would have left here and tried a refund long ago but I am not going to. Even if combat ends up being shitty which I hope it won't there is still so many amazing features, concepts, great tech and insane assets in this game. And I hope the rich noncombat mechanics give additional incentive of enjoying and playing the game. 

[Tom Villder]

25 minutes ago, CyberianK said:

That said my love for the game is still strong else I would have left here and tried a refund long ago but I am not going to. Even if combat ends up being shitty which I hope it won't there is still so many amazing features, concepts, great tech and insane assets in this game. And I hope the rich noncombat mechanics give additional incentive of enjoying and playing the game. 

You're not alone... I read in some infographic or something that a significant number of backers wanted noncombat roles.  But otoh fingers crossed CIG might tweak space combat enough to the point that it improves and fulfills the expectations of the space sim fans, its not like SC is going to be released tomorrow

[Scotterius]

17 hours ago, CyberianK said:

Basically my opinion is that the current space combat gameplay is total shit and has been since AC came to be and I think it needs a major rework from the grounds up which is unfortunately not happening. Also the game has moved away from its original promise to reinvigorate the SpaceSim genre it is currently an Arcade Shooter in the tradition of Freelancer instead of a game in WC tradition.

Ok...not to poke the beast...but I gotta. I feel that the flight mechanics are fantastic. Better than Elite Dangerous, better than Wing commander...and *ahem* better than Freespace 2. I don't get the whole want "to roll to shoot thing" that joystick players like...especially in a 6 degree of movement setting and I don't accept that argument (but I don't see you making it).  IM and joysticks are close, really close. I switch back and forth between vjoy and IM between patches carefully looking at the difference. For a long time I found that a Sabre with fixed weapons were superior for me. Only since 2.6 (and this is just me) am I seeing a slight gain in speed Using IM with a gimballed hornet in clearing VS (which is what I use to gauge weapons, ships and fit). That increase in speed is just 11%, and I suspect that practice can overcome a lot of that.  I am still torn between the two. Players do really good with both approaches.

It feels really close to me, man. I don't see it as the end of the holy space sim. I have had more fun with Star Ctizen (already) than any other space game I have owned.

[Rocket Man]

21 hours ago, Scotterius said:

Ok...not to poke the beast...but I gotta. I feel that the flight mechanics are fantastic. Better than Elite Dangerous, better than Wing commander...and *ahem* better than Freespace 2. I don't get the whole want "to roll to shoot thing" that joystick players like...especially in a 6 degree of movement setting and I don't accept that argument (but I don't see you making it).  IM and joysticks are close, really close. I switch back and forth between vjoy and IM between patches carefully looking at the difference. For a long time I found that a Sabre with fixed weapons were superior for me. Only since 2.6 (and this is just me) am I seeing a slight gain in speed Using IM with a gimballed hornet in clearing VS (which is what I use to gauge weapons, ships and fit). That increase in speed is just 11%, and I suspect that practice can overcome a lot of that.  I am still torn between the two. Players do really good with both approaches.

It feels really close to me, man. I don't see it as the end of the holy space sim. I have had more fun with Star Ctizen (already) than any other space game I have owned.

I kind of agree with you here, and I kind of don't.  The flight model as it stands now is.... frustrating.  It just does not feel right in combat.  @Doopsums and I had a small conversation about this a few weeks ago, and we both agreed that the latest flight models are not perfect, but need a lot of improvement.  The idea of their balancing between boost and afterburners messes with the flight system enough that my shots are not on target.  I miss more now than ever in AC, and it is frustrating to play.  I have switched over to mouse and keyboard to see how it feels and similarly, I am not happy with it.  I will be the first to admit that the flight model in 1.3 felt the best and seemed to keep instinct in check when dogfighting.  That flight model rewarded you with correct 6 DOF maneuvers and allowed skilled pilots the upper hand.  IMO, the flight mechanics seemed to have gotten worse with each patch since 1.3.

With all of that said, I am not leaving the game.  This is the most fun I have had in a space sim.  I do plan on having a lot of play on the T&I side to make money to support my military role.  So, other game mechanics are keeping me happy with the overall product CIG is giving us.  Whatever the final flight model is when the game drops, I will get used to.  It just comes down to some serious practice, patience, and adaptation.  I may be spending more time than I really want to in adjusting to the final flight mechanics of the game, but I am willing to spend such time as long as the game delivers fun along the journey to becoming an ace pilot.

[Scotterius]

@Rocket Man Sorry it is frustrating you. This is not my favorite reiteration either, but I think I have pretty successfully adapted. I liked the model the best, right before the doubled the hit points of all the ships. I liked this time because I felt that light fighters did really well (the gladius, and the 350R).  During this time firepower seemed pretty balanced between ships, as the faster ships had just as quick (or quicker) time to kills than heavier ships due to being able to get to targets faster and shooting more often...at least in vanduul swarm. Flight skill had more pay off. The light ships were just so exciting because with some concentration and practice they were actually better in a heavy fray.  The hornet felt like a death trap to me, plenty of firepower, but without the agility to dodge hits.

In retrospect, I agree with you that the acceleration changes are what made the fixed weapon layouts less useful in 2.6.1. These changes also made the hornet amazing with vector changes, actually seeming to out fly the Sabre.

I dont fly using a M&K strictly speaking. I use programmable mouse, a razor tartarus (a mini key board, with a directional pad and thumb switch), and foot pedals. So I use the mouse for 2 DoF, the Tartarus for 4(and roll) and the pedals for 2. It allows me to do all DoF simultanously...and that was something I was exploring even before AC.

I fear also that your and Doops ( @Doopsums )problem is that you are really, really good. So the game will always seem to be balanced for someone else, someone less good. Like me perhaps. My heart bleeds for you though  I suggest drinking more. Washington state, and Oregon has great beer. I can recommend some.

[Rocket Man]

10 hours ago, Scotterius said:

@Rocket Man Sorry it is frustrating you. This is not my favorite reiteration either, but I think I have pretty successfully adapted. I liked the model the best, right before the doubled the hit points of all the ships. I liked this time because I felt that light fighters did really well (the gladius, and the 350R).  During this time firepower seemed pretty balanced between ships, as the faster ships had just as quick (or quicker) time to kills than heavier ships due to being able to get to targets faster and shooting more often...at least in vanduul swarm. Flight skill had more pay off. The light ships were just so exciting because with some concentration and practice they were actually better in a heavy fray.  The hornet felt like a death trap to me, plenty of firepower, but without the agility to dodge hits.

In retrospect, I agree with you that the acceleration changes are what made the fixed weapon layouts less useful in 2.6.1. These changes also made the hornet amazing with vector changes, actually seeming to out fly the Sabre.

I dont fly using a M&K strictly speaking. I use programmable mouse, a razor tartarus (a mini key board, with a directional pad and thumb switch), and foot pedals. So I use the mouse for 2 DoF, the Tartarus for 4(and roll) and the pedals for 2. It allows me to do all DoF simultanously...and that was something I was exploring even before AC.

I fear also that your and Doops ( @Doopsums )problem is that you are really, really good. So the game will always seem to be balanced for someone else, someone less good. Like me perhaps. My heart bleeds for you though  I suggest drinking more. Washington state, and Oregon has great beer. I can recommend some.

Oh trust me, drinking is not a problem!   LOL.  Anyway, it's just a matter of getting used to the newer finesse it takes to get things right.  I am not happy mostly because I have to relearn how to do certain maneuvers and forget ones that were once effective.  I had a lot of practice with 1.3, so that is probably why I like it so.  I will not disagree with the light fighters having a bit more agility than medium fighters, that's how they are supposed to be.  Similarly, the medium fighters should have more punch to them to account for lack of agility, so that when they do hit their mark, it is more damaging and rewarding for outsmarting the small fighter.  As long as CIG keeps the dogfighting away from space-jousting, I will be happy in the end.