Xi'an Khartu-al - 2.3 - Community Input - [POLL]

[VoA]

I didn't get a chance to post this Poll on SCB Base the other day (busy with work and had a meeting right after I posted it) .... when I added it to RSI Forums but would like to get people's opinion and votes here as well (besides it is fun + you can vote in both polls if you want).  Please only reply to Poll issue here and general Khartu-Al stuff on our specific ship thread -->  Xi'an Scout - Khartu-al (export model)

Overall I am VERY impressed with Xi'an Khartu-al but would like to help CIG follow what the Community thinks.

I personally LOVE the aesthetic (look) and the Animations...... but it needs more work (CIG probably knows most of this already)....

1) Love the Look
2) Love the Animations
3) HUD needs to feel more Alien
4) Weapon load-out too weak for being a competitor to a Hornet (per lore) - Should have 2xM6A (instead of 2x5A)
5) Needs to be more maneuverable (expecting it to be the most maneuverable ship in game)
6) Should have alien inertial dampers to help reduce Black / Red Outs (better than UEE ship tech)
7) Should have faster speed (it is suppose to be a racer and the size of thrusters should warrant it) - right now it is only 220 SCM (210 is a slow Hornet) and only 660 CRU
8) Should have stronger shields (per CIG - 10ftd)


^^^ See 00:46 - Technology of Xi'An Scout ___ ++ more in the video

From CIG--->>
WHAT MAKES THE KHARTU-AL COOL?

The Khartu-al, aka the Xi’An Scout, is our first attempt to make a human-flyable ship that’s TRULY alien. The Khartu doesn’t just look different from the rest of Star Citizen’s armada: it behaves differently, too! With a wide ‘bubble’ cockpit, a unique type of gimbaled thrusters and a silhouette that’s like nothing on Earth, the Khartu is intended as the flagship for our alien tech designers. Future Xi’An ships will be based on the style and the technology we’re currently developing for the Scout… and the player will be able to experience flight and combat in Star Citizen in a uniquely different way. The Khartu is also FAST; we imagine a properly modded version to be an ideal platform for future Murray Cup competitors!

 

So you want a the most maneuverable ship in game with ballpark weapon power of a Hornet? Lol

No - you forget that it would have low armor and low ship health - essentially it is fragile - but then it justifies it being " extremely maneuverable, fast, decently armed and have a decent shield" - Correct? It would be balanced accordingly then per above right?

+++

See this from RSI ------>> Xi'An High-Tech: The Khartu-al --->> Here are some excerpts... and from $21m letter from the Chairman

Should be as fast as an M50 and 350r - with (4) Size 3 thrusters

The Khartu is also FAST; we imagine a properly modded version to be an ideal platform for future Murray Cup competitors!

 

Yes CIG intends for the Khartu-Al to have an "Alien" HUD interface

That’s because we’re dedicated to creating a ship that really is different… and to make that happen, we need both the promised thruster system AND a unique alien HUD interface.

 

It is more of a Patrol ship than a "Scout Ship" - and Patrol Ships need to "fight" not "explore"...

The idea of a dedicated scout ship derives from the xenophobic nature of the Xi’An; we decided they would have an extensive system of patrol ships and boarder checkpoints to stop humans from interfering with their territory.

 

Yes it should be able to function as a light attack aircraft (not just a scout)

The Khartu is the light attack craft of the Xi’An military.

 

Yes it should be extremely maneuverable - giving this is a specialty engine design of the Xi'An and the lore supports it being the most maneuverable ship in the game.

Contrary to Human ship design, the Khartu doesn’t have a traditional main thruster, instead featuring an array of maneuvering thrusters on articulated rigs. This design allows for incredible agility, making them the bane of UEE pilots, who bestowed the nickname ‘Quark’ because when all of the thrusters are firing, the ship looks like a spark flying through space. 

Xi’an ships: how can we make them play differently than the standard human ships? We have a few ideas and with this stretch goal we can put them into the game! In addition to alien designs and interfaces, the Xi’an craft will feature a totally different maneuvering system.

Xi’an ship design will be focused on a vertical aesthetic and maneuvering jets that can combine to thrust in multiple directions. Gimbaled, larger-than-normal thrusters sit on the four points of a star in the centerline, allowing each thruster unobstructed hemispherical coverage. The Xi’an scout can rotate on all axes and direct four thrusters to the rear or front! Because of this configuration the Xi’an ship has superb linear maneuvering abilities on all axes. This extra maneuverability comes at a cost however. Xi’an ships favor maneuverability over heavy armament or defensive protection.

This design allows for incredible agility, making them the bane of UEE pilots, who bestowed the nickname ‘Quark’ because when all of the thrusters are firing, the ship looks like a spark flying through space.

While we know this is an earlier video (more of an animation) it clearly shows a MUCH faster more Maneuverable Khartu-Al

 

[VoA]

STL gives a good assement of the ship in this video. ..... with emphasis on the fact it is a WIP and needs a lot of improvement  (which I agree ) based on what it was advertised to be

 

[Valotian]

I could agree with it being faster and with more maneuverability (the most maneuverable in the game is another matter), I'm not so sure about better shields and armaments though. This particular craft is an export model from an alien race that humanity was formerly at war with to be used as an explorer/scout. I highly doubt they would release up-to-date armaments to former enemies.

 

I think what you are looking for is a Qhire Khartu, which is the particular craft that ended up winning the race event.

 

"The Xi'An Aopoa corporation manufactures an export model of the Qhire Khartu, the Khartu-al, for sale to human civilians as a dedicated scout/explorer. The export model features the same Xi'an maneuvering rig, but control surfaces modified for human use and a more limited armament."

"The Xi’An and Humanity have had a tumultuous relationship over the years. While the Xi’An have generally regarded Humanity as short-sighted and impetuous, they have acknowledged our capacity to destroy and treated us accordingly. While their technology might seem superior to ours (it certainly looks nicer), most of that is simply due to its alien origin. Our two civilizations are on relatively equal technological footing. This ability for mutual annihilation is probably what kept either side from attempting an all-out attack."

"A young Xi'An expatriot, Shrin Vaatu, made political waves when he dedicated his Murray Cup victory to the UEE. He flew the Qhire Khartu."

[faquarl25]

First, the HUD is designed for humans, so it wouldn't need to look alien. Second, the Xian military model is supposed to compete with the hornet, not the export civilian model which lore states has fewer weapons. Thirdly, if the Xian have special inertial dampeners, they shouldn't export them to the UEE as every company would be using them within six months. If all of these additions which @VoA wants are completed, this scout would be OP. It is not supposed to be a fighter taking on a hornet. 

 

Edit:

Even if they wanted supreme maneuverability for these fighters, they can just increase the tolerance of Xian to Gs, allowing the Quire Kartu to turn faster. I do support the Kartu to be extremely maneuverable, however you should black out if you fly it to the max.

Edited March 20, 2016 by faquarl25
Opinion

[VoA]

@Valotian and @faquarl25 ---- >>> See this from RSI ------>> Xi'An High-Tech: The Khartu-al --->> Here are some excerpts... and from $21m letter from the Chairman

Should be as fast as an M50 and 350r - with (4) Size 3 thrusters

The Khartu is also FAST; we imagine a properly modded version to be an ideal platform for future Murray Cup competitors!

 

Yes CIG intends for the Khartu-Al to have an "Alien" HUD interface

That’s because we’re dedicated to creating a ship that really is different… and to make that happen, we need both the promised thruster system AND a unique alien HUD interface.

 

It is more of a Patrol ship than a "Scout Ship" - and Patrol Ships need to "fight" not "explore"...

The idea of a dedicated scout ship derives from the xenophobic nature of the Xi’An; we decided they would have an extensive system of patrol ships and boarder checkpoints to stop humans from interfering with their territory.

 

Yes it should be able to function as a light attack aircraft (not just a scout)

The Khartu is the light attack craft of the Xi’An military.

 

Yes it should be extremely maneuverable - giving this is a specialty engine design of the Xi'An and the lore supports it being the most maneuverable ship in the game.

Contrary to Human ship design, the Khartu doesn’t have a traditional main thruster, instead featuring an array of maneuvering thrusters on articulated rigs. This design allows for incredible agility, making them the bane of UEE pilots, who bestowed the nickname ‘Quark’ because when all of the thrusters are firing, the ship looks like a spark flying through space. 

Xi’an ships: how can we make them play differently than the standard human ships? We have a few ideas and with this stretch goal we can put them into the game! In addition to alien designs and interfaces, the Xi’an craft will feature a totally different maneuvering system.

Xi’an ship design will be focused on a vertical aesthetic and maneuvering jets that can combine to thrust in multiple directions. Gimbaled, larger-than-normal thrusters sit on the four points of a star in the centerline, allowing each thruster unobstructed hemispherical coverage. The Xi’an scout can rotate on all axes and direct four thrusters to the rear or front! Because of this configuration the Xi’an ship has superb linear maneuvering abilities on all axes. This extra maneuverability comes at a cost however. Xi’an ships favor maneuverability over heavy armament or defensive protection.

This design allows for incredible agility, making them the bane of UEE pilots, who bestowed the nickname ‘Quark’ because when all of the thrusters are firing, the ship looks like a spark flying through space.

While we know this is an earlier video (more of an animation) it clearly shows a MUCH faster more Maneuverable Khartu-Al

 

[Valotian]

It still seems that you are still mostly referencing the Qhire Khartu, which is the light attack craft of the Xi'An military, and not the Aopoa Khartu-al, which is a lesser form of the Qhire Khartu. Making it functional as a racer/scout/explorer is fine imo, but as a premiere light attack craft, I think not. It just wouldn't make sense for the Xi'An to openly sell such armaments to the UEE public.

[VoA]

50 minutes ago, Valotian said:

It still seems that you are still mostly referencing the Qhire Khartu, which is the light attack craft of the Xi'An military, and not the Aopoa Khartu-al, which is a lesser form of the Qhire Khartu. Making it functional as a racer/scout/explorer is fine imo, but as a premiere light attack craft, I think not. It just wouldn't make sense for the Xi'An to openly sell such armaments to the UEE public.

I understand there is a difference between the two but did you see this quote...... that refers not to the racer..... +++ Note that CIG never made a distinguishable difference between the two for the sale (there is no mention of them needing to be variants) --- quote from above - copied below...

Quote

 

It is more of a Patrol ship than a "Scout Ship" - and Patrol Ships need to "fight" not "explore"...

The idea of a dedicated scout ship derives from the xenophobic nature of the Xi’An; we decided they would have an extensive system of patrol ships and boarder checkpoints to stop humans from interfering with their territory.

 

Yes it should be able to function as a light attack aircraft (not just a scout)

The Khartu is the light attack craft of the Xi’An military.

 

 

CIG never said they were just sellilng us another Racer....... just a Xi'An Light fighter that is as fast as other Racers.   Same argument applies to the M50.... it is also a Light Interceptor = not just a racer.

[faquarl25]

5 hours ago, VoA said:

I understand there is a difference between the two but did you see this quote...... that refers not to the racer..... +++ Note that CIG never made a distinguishable difference between the two for the sale (there is no mention of them needing to be variants) --- quote from above - copied below...

 

CIG never said they were just sellilng us another Racer....... just a Xi'An Light fighter that is as fast as other Racers.   Same argument applies to the M50.... it is also a Light Interceptor = not just a racer.

CIG did make a distinguishable difference by repeatedly saying that what is being sold is being sold is a civilian export version for the frenemies of a xenophobic race. Its like the US selling China airplanes.  What we should get is an extremely maneuverable racer that should be able to easily beat mustangs. The Qhire Kartu, or the Quark, is a Xian light fighter, which would mean it is equivalent to the glades. By that logic, The Kartu-al should be a more maneuverable, less armored gladius. A great ship to race with but not something to willing bring to a big fight. On the other hand, Capturing and modifying a Quire Kartu should give you an excellent light fighter. 

[VoA]

16 hours ago, faquarl25 said:

CIG did make a distinguishable difference by repeatedly saying that what is being sold is being sold is a civilian export version for the frenemies of a xenophobic race. Its like the US selling China airplanes.  What we should get is an extremely maneuverable racer that should be able to easily beat mustangs. The Qhire Kartu, or the Quark, is a Xian light fighter, which would mean it is equivalent to the glades. By that logic, The Kartu-al should be a more maneuverable, less armored gladius. A great ship to race with but not something to willing bring to a big fight. On the other hand, Capturing and modifying a Quire Kartu should give you an excellent light fighter. 

Point being..... we didn't get what you describe.   The Khartu-Al is barely faster than a Hornet and slides all over the place (is not maneuverable).  It doesn't fit being a racer at all (way too slow).  It doesn't fit a Scout or Patrol ship either (no mention of sensors or ability to track).   So can you tell us what did we end up getting?

VoAVoA Posted: 8:17AM

Options

 

Maduyn | Maduyn said:

[source]

I poked around the holotable a bit and have some stuff I found:
Mass: 22779 (for reference: F7C: 25181 Sabre:21893 Gladius: 19286 Warlock: 25449)
Hitpoints: 3355 (for reference: F7C: 7460 Sabre:4835 Gladius: 3514 Warlock: 3785)
Shield Points: 5400 (for reference: F7C: 3200 Sabre:4800 Gladius: 3600 Warlock: 3200)


The KA has counter measure slots it just wasn't equipped by default (for the record they are equipped in the pizza box)
here they are equipped ingame:

holotable of countermeasure launcher:


4 Star heart power plants: (these are in the main body not the fins)


Invincible Quad Shield Generator


The fin as a whole is coded as the engine I think probably to code the articulation of the wings (each fin also has 2 fuel tanks)


4 WCPR Berian Coolers one on each fin


The Scout is equipped with a 3d radar



 

Everything looks balanced "on-paper" --->> Thus what we are "seeing" must be "bugs" that CIG needs to work through. Similar to how the Vanguard was originally gimped when it first came out and the Sabre (who's shields don't stop missile explosion damage).

It seems like a bug if you have to equip counter measures (instead of it being in a stock load out)

The "hit points" of the ship seem on paper to be fine but if you just touch an asteroid slightly and the whole ship falls apart - is a clear bug.

=========

Can we say that it's top speed and maneuverability are bugs (not sure since they are probably finite values).... and the fact that it only goes slightly faster than a Hornet (when in actuality it is suppose to be a Racing ship to compete with the M50 and 350R in the Murray Cup per the Lore for the Khartu-Al) and it is suppose to handle and maneuver unlike anything the UEE has ever seen.... then you have to wonder was it intentional or temporary just to get it flyable (in the game early)???

Primary Engines Max size (4) TR3 
Maneuvering Thrusters Max size (8) TR2

^^^^ These should allow it to be EXTREMELY maneuverable and fast - but the current flight model doesn't reflect that.

[AstroJak]

I would suggest that the current condition of this ship is just a base line from which CIG will modify to fall inline with earlier statements made in the lore.

If however, after several months we don't see substantial improvements to key aspects such as speed and maneuverability then we will have an issue.

For now im content with a wait and see approach.

AJ

AstroJak

[VoA]

2.3.0a Published to PTU

 

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/323394

Khartu-al

• Added maneuvering thrusters to the Khartu-al Xian Scout.
• Added audio for Khartu-al Xian Scout engines.
• Made addition tweaks to how the Khartu-al Xian Scout handles in flight.
• Made tweaks to Khartu-al Xian Scout UI.
• Fixed some audio issues with the Khartu-al Xian Scout.
• Fixed an issue with the wings animating erratically in the Khartu-al Xian Scout.
• Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al Xian Scout was missing its shields.

 

[VoA]

2.3.0b Published to PTU

 

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/323518/2-3-0b-published-to-ptu#latest

Ships:

• Fixed an issue where the boost gauge for the Khartu-al was not replenishing after use.
• Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al radar globe not showing up correctly.
• Fixed an issue where the countermeasures of the Xian Scout were not working.

Looks like things are being fixed but it doesn't look like the speed and maneuverability (too much drift and not enough agility) is still a problem.   Not sure if CIG has looked at just having two weapons (with no missiles) as a viable balanced fighting option either (unless the agility is really ramp'd up)

[VoA]

2.3.0c Published to PTU

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/323545/2-3-0c-published-to-ptu/p1

• Made some additional tweaks to how the Khartu-al handles in flight.

 

Looks like CIG is on the right path towards making the Khartu-Al as it should be (with speed = Murray Cup Winner and Agility).

 

I still think it should go faster - closer to 340 m/s in SCM (instead of the new 290)...... which would still make it slower than the M50 and 350R per below...

- with (4) Size 3 thrusters

The Khartu is also FAST; we imagine a properly modded version to be an ideal platform for future Murray Cup competitors!

[Info] Current top speed of all flyable ships in Arena Commander and Crusader

Here's a list of the current top speed of all flyable ships (stock configuration) in Crusader and Arena Commander (patch: v2.2.2): 

PRE: Precision Mode (top speed of all ships: 50 m/s)
SCM: Standard Combat Maneuvering
AFB: Afterburner
CRU: Cruise Mode

 

Elaynne | Elaynne said:

[source]

While the 2.3c Khartu-Al is much better than the previous versions, it most certainly is not "better than the m50 good". It falls somewhere around 25% short of the lateral and vertical accelerations of the m50 as well as much weaker retro strength. In addition, rotation (yaw, pitch, and roll) still suffers from a signifigant amount of oversteer where as the m50's rotations are exceptionaly crisp.

At present, I feel the flight characteristics of the Khartu-Al feel squarely in the "run of the mill UEE" catagory, not "different alien" catagory. I suggest if they want to give the Khatu-Al a different feel from the average UEE ship they should consider doubling (or more) the strength of the retros. Most UEE ships have relativly weak retros and giving the Khatu-Al strong ones would go a long way toward giving it a different feel. It would also help the current rotation issues a great deal.

+1 Agree - Great Post

[VoA]

Very Happy with CIG taking seriously the issues people have had with the Xi'An Khartu-al and their efforts to continually improve it PTU patch after patch - now A-D

2.3.0d Published to PTU

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/323745/2-3-0d-published-to-ptu/p1

• PTU players in this initial test will have access to the Khartu-al in AC and Crusader, and the Starfarer (if you have the Revel & York hangar on your account).

Ships:

• Made some tweaks to thruster visual effects.

Khartu-al:

• Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al was missing audio when destroyed.
• Fixed an issue where the control sphere animations on the Khartu-al were reversed.
• Made additional tweaks to the Khartu-al pilot seat when spawning into Arena Commander.
• Made some additional tuning to how the Khartu-al handles in flight.
• Made additional tweaks to the Khartu-al boost and cruise speed.
• Added passby sounds to the Khartu-al.
• Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al thrusters were not visibly firing when the Scout was boosting.

[VoA]

A good evaluation by Bat-Girl - but note that this was the Previous Patch 2.3c and they are currently on "d" -- but still it needs a lot more work ((but happy CIG is working on it and not releasing SC2.3 until it is working right))

[VoA]

2.3.1 pushed to PTU

Fixed an issue with some of the Khartu-al landing animations.

mmmm.... interesting fix (j/k).... see funny video below....

[VoA]

2.3.1a Published to PTU

Ships:
Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al guns were firing perpendicular to the direction the guns were pointing

[VoA]

2.3.1c Published to PTU

 

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/325118/2-3-1c-published-to-ptu

Ships:

• Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al veered slightly to the left when directed forward.
• Fixed an issue with the Khartu-al, where the pilots hands were slightly off center of the controls.

From RTV today...

Quote

Xi'An Scout: Will have Xi'An Weapons in the future

 

[VoA]

Monthly Studio Report

Part of what made the Xi’an Aopoa Khartu-al able to be released in 2.3 was Matt Intrieri’s work on getting so many Xi’an Aopoa Khartu-al -related bugs fixed in a relatively short amount of time, but we also are aware there is more fixing and tweaking that still needs to be completed before we are absolutely sanguine with the ship.

[VoA]

Juicy | Juicy said:

[source]

The fins need to be removable and replacable with proper armament, limit it to Xi'an weapons only if necessary.
The top fin should be removable and give space for a single size 3 or size 4 weapon,
the bottom fin should be removable and give space for a size 1 or size 2 weapon.

Removing the fins would remove any and all dedicated (scouting) sensor equipment, so the scout would only have regular sensor left.
The fins *need* functionality, otherwise it's another stupid "aesthetic decision" to write on the designers' conto. With this solution, the fins will be functional, while also solving the armament and some of the frontal cross-section problems.

WOW...... EXCELLENT Suggestion... A modular Khartu-al. ..!!!!!

How about the Removable Fins also acting as extra range fuel tanks and also its Jump Engine (since we also know that UEE ships have extra fuel drop tanks to replace hardpoints)...... 

So the Modular fighting Khartu-al would be a short range ship that will not be as bulky ......

.....and......


The Modular scouting Khartu-al would be a long range ship that has extra fuel and a Jump Engine plus more sensors but would have fewer hardpoints for weapons.....

....What do you think? .....

[faquarl25]

Sure, but:

There are so many ships to make I would rather them not pour tons of time into the Kartu-al whose parts can't be reused often as there won't be many Xi'an ships.  

And not sure about a size 4 weapon though.... 

[VoA]

4 hours ago, faquarl25 said:

And not sure about a size 4 weapon though.... 

Well.... the S4 would be appropriate if they were fixed and the only weapons it has (then it would be more balanced than just fixed S3s) since there is only 2 weapons.  If they gave it more weapons then it would be reduced (in my opinion - for balance reasons).

Here is a follow up post to the other one above.....

Juicy | Juicy said:

[source]

 

» show previous quotes

The fuel tanks is definitely an idea, though I do believe the jump engine should stay and be part of the main hull. The ship is supposed to be somewhat of an equivalent of the Hornet, which already is more modular anyway, and still is, even with this suggestion.

Most small fighters - including Hornets - don't come stock with a Jump Engine - but can be equipped with one (example - only the Super Hornet - out of all the Hornets come stock with a Jump Engine). But perhaps you are right in that the Jump Engine location should not be tied to the upper and lower wings but to the central location. The upper and lower wings would be used to house Quantum Fuel...... and the Dorsal Fins would be used to house Boost Fuel (since we know these are separate types of fuel in SC).

However...... maybe the Fighting Khartu-Al doesn't come stock with a Jump Engine...... but can still add a Jump Engine as a separate module. Remember there is a reason why carrier fighters don't have Jump Engines - they add Mass, Increase EM signature, require more power, more CPU, more Cooling..... so in many cases you don't "want" one while dog-fighting.

The "Scout" Khartu-al would not only add the extra fuel tanks (for Quantum Fuel) and extra Sensors as you describe but would also come stock with the Jump Engine.

I can see these either being defined specialized Variants or just Modular Options (which one do you think makes the most sense)?

JuicyJuicy

 

 

 

Posted: 10:15AM

 

 

 

VoA | VoA said:

[source]

» show previous quotes

Most small fighters - including Hornets - don't come stock with a Jump Engine ....

Hmm, hard to say. I think for the player the ship would be more useful if he/she can swap pieces around when required. But standard Khartu's not coming with the jumpdrive insta

[VoA]

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15286-Star-Citizen-Alpha-231#UFSS

Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al guns were firing perpendicular to the direction the guns were pointing.
Fixed an issue where the Khartu-al veered slightly to the left when directed forward.
Fixed an issue with the Khartu-al, where the pilots hands were slightly off center of the controls.

[VoA]

RTV Just now...

11:46 
- [Xi'An scout revisions / upgrades?] Potentially. They'll look at it down the line, but not soon. No ship in the game is 100% done. They'll all see revisions and upgrades down the line.

[Chris von Hoff]

When i first saw the scout it was listed with 6 gun mounts, after it finaly was for sale it was down to 2 gun mounts.

That realy anoid me ^^

The pricetag warrented at least 4 guns