The Orion: The dream miner and a fleet essential

[Xeen]

New information = revising my plans and thinking yet again.

With the design doc released on the repair mechanic, the Orion has now become a 'must have' for all deep-space fleet operations.  Repairing will cost raw/refined materials, which will be limited.  Any large, deep-space fleet operation will need a refueling ship, a repair ship, and materials providing ships such as the Orion and Crucible (hmm, can maybe salvage subcomponents, etc.?)  Complete autonomy is key when going the distance.  So far, we have everything taken care of except manufacturing ballistic ammunition and missiles, which we should have plenty of cargo space to accomodate with.  That or use energy weapons or keep some in storage for fighters in the event ammo is depleted.

The Orion serves two functions, it can collect resources wherever it goes, and it can refine them for distribution to repair vessels should the need arise (or stock up on rare/valuable materials if they aren't , running the Orion or Refueler may be boring at times, but it has its perks).

Unless otherwise stated, the duty of the Orion to the fleet would be to acquire, refine, and provide all necessary materials for repair in exchange for fuel, protection, and support for itself.  Then, after the operation is over, the crew of the Orion would divy up their bounty of cargo.  This is assuming that the Orion is playing a support role in some large org operation involving carriers, explorers, fighters, etc., the whole line up.  If the Orion (or multiple) is the one being supported, focus of support/the fleet, with the intent of entering dangerous space for the sole purpose of harvesting valuable materials (a mining operation with limited support other than military), that's a different story.

Heck, if an op is ending, the Orion(s) could mine up and refine resources until everyone's cargo holds are full    Fill up that space the ammo and missiles were occupying once the battle is over.

 

I'm guessing the Orion can be crewed by 3 or 4 people.  Duties include: Pilot, scanner, laser op, tractor op, refinery op.  Some of these can likely be combined into one station.  For example, the pilot can probably handle scanning, and it would make sense to pair these anyway with the pilot knowing where he is going and what he wants to check out, then relaying that information to the next man.  Also, the laser op may be able to run the tractors, again it would make sense to pair these with the cutter knowing what's being cut and what/where to expect fragments.

No need for the guns while mining, switch to guns and stop mining if the situation calls for it.

 

Just some thoughts while getting more excited than I already am.

@Chimaera I smell a medal in here somewhere, I just can't put my finger on what or how to qualify it...

Multitasking

Station/duty efficiency

I dunno...  When we get to see more of the game, and we can make some concrete Academy courses for certs + have practicals and live demonstrations, that may be easier to spot.

Trying to explain the things in my head... nobody wants a laser op that destabilizes rocks or a tractor op that bangs up your hull/misses rocks or a repairman that wastes resources constantly.

Having the medals and certs will definitely help to identify the most capable pilots/players for their chosen tasks, and hopefully tie in to their pay grade too! (at least in some indirect, non-arbitrated way)

Oh, one more thought I'm try to squeeze out of my head in not such an elegant fashion:

Waste less = saving money/time/resources = everyone gets paid more and faster is the reasoning behind wanting certs/recognition for competency (or extreme competency) and paying those players more.  They've earned it, and they are earning it for their team too, so give them their due.

Also, paying people more for being better at a task will only serve to incentivize broad-spectrum improvement in all of our members.

[Rocket Man]

I see where you are going with this.... and I like it!  But I view this as more of how Imperium will be operating for the beginning of the PU.  We just may be one massive fleet moving through jump points to our final home where a mass of Imperium ships will be working to create a supporting lifeline, or more of self-sufficiency.  This post (OP) certainly ties several aspects of the game together into a more fluid flow of resources.  :)

[Irres]

I like the idea of certifying for roles and making that visible to people looking for crew.

I don't know that I agree with assigning a pay grade to it.  There will be varying factors determining what is avaiable for crew overhead costs given the nature of the trip.  A trip where a ship will take more damage to mine for material of lower value, that we just need as an org, will need to have more set aside for hull repairs, before addressing cost of crew (as an example).

 

[GeraldEvans]

Xeen, this is why I got one. Also if you read the Orion introduction post, it's why I've been such a vocal proponent of automatic and immediate data sharing. With four thousand pairs of eyes in the game we'd all know where to mine, where to probe deeper, where the ore is running thin, and we could operate much more effectively. Also we'd know if we needed an escort and how much resistance to expect. What route to take or avoid on the way there and from there to market.

All fleet needs to do is hide our military assets from viewing for operational security, but otherwise lift the fog of war.

[alkiap]

The Repair design doc was a real eye-opener. I always trusted Chris when he said that no task would be completed by merely clicking a button, but I did not expect such a detail on an activity which probably appeals to only a small fraction of gamers (no offense intended - I count myself in that minority).
 Not only is the activity a full job ( and a multi-crew one), but it just made resource harvesting/scavenging a very important role.

If losing a ship brings a tangible impact to the player (money loss, time loss, inconvenience.. whatever), then pilots will be motivated to run if on the losing side, rather than fighting to the death as happens in most games. This means that returning home damaged will not be a rare occurrence, which in turn means that resources necessary to complete those repair become an important commodity.

In remote areas they will not even be a commodity, but real, valuable goods: being able to keep craft fully repaired will allow on Org to sustain operations outside "civilized" space.

I fully agree with Xeen on the importance of Orion operation!

[Xeen]

21 hours ago, GeraldEvans said:

Xeen, this is why I got one. Also if you read the Orion introduction post, it's why I've been such a vocal proponent of automatic and immediate data sharing. With four thousand pairs of eyes in the game we'd all know where to mine, where to probe deeper, where the ore is running thin, and we could operate much more effectively. Also we'd know if we needed an escort and how much resistance to expect. What route to take or avoid on the way there and from there to market.

 

All fleet needs to do is hide our military assets from viewing for operational security, but otherwise lift the fog of war.

And it's not like anything is that restricted with multiple instancing of each area, not much reason to not share unless there are so few people going there only once instance is open  

 

Much remains to be seen about many things still, but I think it's safe to say that an Orion is now a valuable and necessary part of a full-scale op where repairs are expected.

[Gnutt Arkonikus]

Totaly agree whit your words @Xeen I think that Orion is and still will be a very important specialized ship into the PU. Also I hope you people now understands me whay I was so hyped about mining and Orion mining ship!

[Th3 Warm0ng3r]

 I like the idea of splitting duties but I think a lot of that will come down to console placement as well. If there are multiple locations a decent distance apart, which with this ship being as large as it is has a decent chance of it being the case, this might not be an efficient way of doing it. Also the mechanics will play a big role. With your example of scanner and pilot for instance, I remember one of the interviews on Around the Verse they talked about the scanner actually using guided scanning missiles that will require a lot of attention to achieve proper penetration into asteroids for a proper scan. For efficiencies sake I would think it would be better to have a separate pilot and scanner so you can slowly start working your way through the asteroid field as your scanner is constantly firing and guiding these missiles until you ind the most profitable rocks to mine. Just a thought. 

[faquarl25]

@Xeen I totally agree that the orion will be vital to a base in deep space. However, I believe that you are incorrect that an Orion will always be useful. From what I understand, mining will be difficult and only feasible in some systems with many systems being absolutely useless for mining purposes. I also forsee an orion's expedition taking long periods of time and not producing nearly enough to keep the fleet running. I would say they are vital to bases that need supplies for repairs and that are to far out to ship to, but are of little use with the fleet. 

[Xeen]

With the addition of the new smaller prospector, it is plausible that one or several could provide enough materials needed for the repair ship to operate.  That was the idea behind having a mining vessel.  A fleet needs the ability to continuously replenish itself.  Endeavor/biodomes for life support, medical, etc.  Starfarer for fuel (possibly some other smaller ship capable of extracting fuel later).  Some mining ship to acquire raw resources to feed to the repair vessel (might actually require strictly refined resources, making an Orion required, or possibly raw will do it but less effective).  An exploration vessel to lead the way, and a military force/carrier to protect everything.

[faquarl25]

11 hours ago, Xeen said:

With the addition of the new smaller prospector, it is plausible that one or several could provide enough materials needed for the repair ship to operate.  That was the idea behind having a mining vessel.  A fleet needs the ability to continuously replenish itself.  Endeavor/biodomes for life support, medical, etc.  Starfarer for fuel (possibly some other smaller ship capable of extracting fuel later).  Some mining ship to acquire raw resources to feed to the repair vessel (might actually require strictly refined resources, making an Orion required, or possibly raw will do it but less effective).  An exploration vessel to lead the way, and a military force/carrier to protect everything.

They have said that the Orion will be able to refine the ores but I would be disappointed if the refined materials could be used immediately. Their entire pitch of the economics model was that everything had a string of components that need to be shipped from all across the empire. Not a single factory that takes an input of raw materials and spits out a ship. If this is true, then raw materials (even when refined) would be useless for repairs as spaceships will be made out of complex alloys, not refined iron or other ores. They have NEVER said that the orion could create its own alloys as this would make the planet based factories or giant mining platforms like Shubin obsolete. 

[Xeen]

The whole point of refining materials is to be able to use them.  They already said some in the repair design/crucible post.  Economics and manufacturing will require refined materials (raw may be involved too), same goes for repairing.  What step are you expecting there to be in between Prospect raw materials -> refine materials -> use materials in repair/industry?  

You need a primary material, a bonding material, and an optional catalyst (names may be a little off, pulling from memory).  I can only assume that the things the Orion mines and refines are what the crucible will use to repair ships.  Why would you be disappointed with a fleet being able to take care of itself?  It's all part of the supply chain, and makes the Orion necessary/useful in forward operations.  

Based on their limited description of repair, I've already mastered the concept  (as best one can).  The materials you input affect the quality and speed of repair, indicated on a line graph by a cut off point (whether or not the materials are of sufficient quality/type to do the job), the size/width of peak (x-axis range for quality of repair job, closer to center is better), magnitude/height of peak (y-axis range for maximum quality of repair), and position of peak (x-axis location of peak center, determines how long you must operate the repair beam to achieve desired results, going too long or too short from 'ideal' results in lower quality repair, optimal repair level at max peak height can be affected by resources input).

There is the repair manager terminal and the repair operator terminal.  Both can be run by a single person or a crew of 2 working together to speed things up (one choosing the materials to use/evaluating tentative results while the other does the work).

An alloy is just a mixture of metals, not hard to do if you have the ability to refine metal ores (generally just requires heat), and the 'laser-matter' repair beam is being fed multiple types of materials, thus creating alloys on the spot.

The economy model will be 90% NPC and largely uninfluenced by players.

All things subject to change.  An Orion may not provide everything/everything on the spot, but it will still be useful to have supply.

[faquarl25]

1 minute ago, Xeen said:

The whole point of refining materials is to be able to use them.  They already said some in the repair design/crucible post.  Economics and manufacturing will require refined materials (raw may be involved too), same goes for repairing.  What step are you expecting there to be in between Prospect raw materials -> refine materials -> use materials in repair/industry?  

You need a primary material, a bonding material, and an optional catalyst (names may be a little off, pulling from memory).  I can only assume that the things the Orion mines and refines are what the crucible will use to repair ships.  Why would you be disappointed with a fleet being able to take care of itself?  It's all part of the supply chain, and makes the Orion necessary/useful in forward operations.  

Based on their limited description of repair, I've already mastered the concept  (as best one can).  The materials you input affect the quality and speed of repair, indicated on a line graph by a cut off point (whether or not the materials are of sufficient quality/type to do the job), the size/width of peak (x-axis range for quality of repair job, closer to center is better), magnitude/height of peak (y-axis range for maximum quality of repair), and position of peak (x-axis location of peak center, determines how long you must operate the repair beam to achieve desired results, going too long or too short from 'ideal' results in lower quality repair, optimal repair level at max peak height can be affected by resources input).

There is the repair manager terminal and the repair operator terminal.  Both can be run by a single person or a crew of 2 working together to speed things up (one choosing the materials to use/evaluating tentative results while the other does the work).

An alloy is just a mixture of metals, not hard to do if you have the ability to refine metal ores (generally just requires heat), and the 'laser-matter' repair beam is being fed multiple types of materials, thus creating alloys on the spot.

The economy model will be 90% NPC and largely uninfluenced by players.

All things subject to change.  An Orion may not provide everything/everything on the spot, but it will still be useful to have supply.

I guess I have always disliked the term "refined" when used with the Orion. If the Orion can make usable materials, why would there be things like the Shubin mining platform and, if it makes subpar materials, do you really want to use them?

Secondly, they have not explained, or I have not read, how they plan for us to fix components such as electronics etc.. which requires more than welding. 

Finally, I have no problem with fleets being self-sufficient, however, from what I have seen, the only resource a fleet might need to resupply on is fuel. everyinthing else from repair parts to missiles should be able to be carried with us as fleet ops will not be more than a few hours due to RL time constraints. 

[Xeen]

There is no mobile factory that I know of (yet?), so missiles and ammunition would not be replenishable (I mentioned in some post, some thread about using energy weapons and stocking all the missiles we could carry)

The old saying goes 'If you want it done right...'   Just like with Overclocking parts and having an Endeavor.  Things can be done at your hangar, but even better given the right tools.   I suspect the Orion will be able to put out materials of equal or greater quality (but not necessarily cheaper) than a mega-corporation that is mostly interested in maximizing profits when operated in the 'mom and pop' fashion.  

Quality, quantity, and cost-effectiveness/profit margin.  That'll be the difference.

 

As for repairing damaged components, I don't know if that will be a thing (repair only covered hull).  For those, you would likely have to carry spare modules, plug and play.  Again, if there was a factory ship, an Orion would still be necessary   We do know that salvage ships (Reclaimer) will be able to break apart wrecks, etc. to recover parts, so maybe one of those would be pretty useful for recovering parts from your defeated foes in order to sustain your own fleet.

 

Who is to say how long fleet ops last.  I fully expect as a mega-org that we will maintain a 24 hour pressence on and control of a persistent carrier ship.  We have the global time-zone coverage and the numbers to do it.

[Dezmodian]

Delightful post!  I have an Orion myself, but haven't looked into the details quite yet.  I knew there would be specific stations on-board, and your post helped to elaborate on the overall design.  I love the idea of the Orion being a means by which the fleet refuels after battles, as a non-primary tool.  Very useful!

 

Looking forward to the mining aspect even more now!

[Xeen]

2 hours ago, Dezmodian said:

Delightful post!  I have an Orion myself, but haven't looked into the details quite yet.  I knew there would be specific stations on-board, and your post helped to elaborate on the overall design.  I love the idea of the Orion being a means by which the fleet refuels after battles, as a non-primary tool.  Very useful!

 

Looking forward to the mining aspect even more now!

The Starfarer is for fuel collection/distribution.

The Orion is likely part of the repair chain.  The Orion would probably collect and refine materials used by a Crucible repair ship (or possibly other ships as well).  A Reclaimer may also be needed to recover modules/replacement parts, as the Crucible seems to be aimed at hull repair only.

 

If you want the oficial in depth info on mining and the Orion, search for the deep dive comm-lik.  Also, play the mini-game 'A Loan in the Verse' if you want to earn the Prospector forum badge

Nothing is certain yet, but the Orion is expected to have a boom operator for the mining laser, a pilot, a tractor beam operator (rock chunks to the jaws), and a refinery operator at the least.  Some stations may include other duties as well, and stations may be flexible to allow for one person to fulfill multiple roles (though perhaps not as effectively) such as cutting and tractoring at once.  It is likely that the refinery operation will be done on a remote part of the ship, or at least the servicable parts will require physical pressence at the refinery in the event of a  breakdown from missuse (or who knows what).

I plan on parking somewhere and then running the laser/tractor until im full of raw ores, then moving to the refinery to clean everything up.  In some way, I want to be able to operate this ship solo, if needed.  More profits, less expenses, everything gets done the right way (my way!).  Of course, there is the added risk of having no one watching the radar or ready to QD away should a threat appear.  Perhaps a 2-man crew is best.

[Th3 Warm0ng3r]

On 6/30/2016 at 7:51 PM, faquarl25 said:

They have said that the Orion will be able to refine the ores but I would be disappointed if the refined materials could be used immediately. Their entire pitch of the economics model was that everything had a string of components that need to be shipped from all across the empire. Not a single factory that takes an input of raw materials and spits out a ship. If this is true, then raw materials (even when refined) would be useless for repairs as spaceships will be made out of complex alloys, not refined iron or other ores. They have NEVER said that the orion could create its own alloys as this would make the planet based factories or giant mining platforms like Shubin obsolete. 

I don't believe that is how it will would in it but more of taking raw ore and separating it into its individual metal components. On a small scale I could see them using an Endeavor for making alloys or in general working as a small scale production system but not efficient enough for anything other than survivability of the fleet it supports. I see this option as a must to be able to maintain a fleet without insane prices but for any profit in the game planet based production systems have to be utilized.