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P72 - Archimedes

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Our first reveal about the P72 Archimedes today's ATV at (and already some misunderstandings developed but Ben addresses it below) - The P72 Archimedes comes with the Phoenix and some on the RSI Forums are QQing already ... sigh...

03:44 - News From Around the Verse - the first part of this segment

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5809142/#Comment_5809142

 
 
 
wcloaf
 
 
 
 

Developer

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Posted: 10:22PM
 
 
 
With all due respect, this is why we can't have nice things. :) AtV segments are not scripted, and the folks being recorded aren't making sure they use the exact technical classification you want for a ship when talking about it. In this case, the producers are referring to it as a 'racer' because Gurmukh just finished a fantastic beauty render of it drag racing two other ships. He's working on a luxury render right now to show off its style... because those are the two specific things promised about the Archimedes: that it's faster than the Merlin and that it's the luxury version.
 

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https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5809645/#Comment_5809645

Another Ben Clarification - With additional quotes below - hot topic - in spoiler (below)

 
 
 
wcloaf
 
 
 
 

Developer

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Posted: 4:46PM
 
 
 
To the best of my knowledge, we've never published specifications for the Merlin. Looking through the sale and brochure, it's described very broadly:

"If you’re looking for something a little more agile, blaze among the stars with Kruger Intergalactic’s P-72 Archimedes from Kruger, standard with every Constellation Phoenix. Whether for added security, exploring a system or simply want a lower profile when landing, the Archimedes is more than capable of stepping up to the task. (At press time, the Archimedes is not yet produced. All Phoenixes will ship with “loaner” Merlins until the Archimedes is available.)" - Phoenix Brochure

"The Phoenix also packs the punch of the speedy P-72 Archimedes fighter in it’s bay and a classy LYNX rover!" - Sale Post

Both of those seem to be pretty clear about one thing... the speed: it's 'more agile' [than the Merlin] in the brochure, and 'speedy' in the initial announcement. 

I think that the big problem here is that we're viewing the classification differently. From our perspective, there's no 'racer' prison that disallows a ship from doing anything else. The M50, for instance, is pretty frequently called a racer... but it's also a very effective fighter interceptor. At no time has calling a ship a racer (and we've had Hornet racers, Scythe racers and even Merlin racers in the lore) ever meant that it must not have weapons or that it can't fight. So don't let something so insignificant make you angry: we're not even talking about a change to the ship's description or an update to the website or anything like that... you're hearing folks (who are not ship designers) casually discuss someone else's work.

I'll add the last set of specifications I've seen for the Archimedes give it exactly the same weapons slots as the Merlin, with a different default gun. I hesitate to say that, because I think it's likely to change (Matt Sherman has volunteered to update on the latest thinking as his time allows; I believe the central gun may change) but there certainly has been no move to make it 'the racing ship' instead of the FASTER improved version of the Merlin it was always intended to be.

With additional quotes below - hot topic - in spoiler 

 
 
 

wcloaf

 
 
 
 

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CIG Ben Lesnick
 

 

 

 

Posted: 4:57PM
 
 
 


@wcloaf, with respect, in the Phoenix brochure, this ship is listed as the P-72 Archimedes short-range fighter, not the P-72 Archimedes short-range racer.

It clearly has been given a role designation, and based on Matt's chatroll statements (as posted by others) it does have some significant changes that may be characterized as downgrades.

Obviously, I'm only going on what I've seen posted.

Similarly, the M50 is listed as an Interceptor in the store. If what you took away from AtV today was that the Archimedes is just for racing, then that's wrong and I'll say that right here... but if what you take away from it being listed as a short-range fighter is that it therefore must be the best fighter in the universe, then you're wrong about that. :)

 
 
 

wcloaf

 
 
 
 

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CIG Ben Lesnick
 

 

 

 

Posted: 5:04PM
 
 
 

@wcloaf Ben, these discussions are happening because of the general confusion about the Phoenix.

There is lots of talk about the Constellation rework, but not even a whisper about what latest design paradigms are going to mean for the Phoenix. That's a lot of quiet for such an expensive ship.

That's largely because we're reworking the base Connie first and the others will follow. There's nothing really to say about the Phoenix today beyond that hopefully it's 'in world' role is a little more clear now that we have more of a pantheon of luxury and personal transport ships available (Starliner, 890 Jump, etc.) The Phoenix is intended to be superior to the other Constellation models in some ways, to do a distinctly different job... and also to be interior in others (less room for cargo and the like.) Every ship will always be a balance of some sort. 

 

 

 
 
 

wcloaf

 
 
 
 

Developer

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CIG Ben Lesnick
 

 

 

 

Posted: 5:04PM
 
 
 

@wcloaf Ben, these discussions are happening because of the general confusion about the Phoenix.

There is lots of talk about the Constellation rework, but not even a whisper about what latest design paradigms are going to mean for the Phoenix. That's a lot of quiet for such an expensive ship.

That's largely because we're reworking the base Connie first and the others will follow. There's nothing really to say about the Phoenix today beyond that hopefully it's 'in world' role is a little more clear now that we have more of a pantheon of luxury and personal transport ships available (Starliner, 890 Jump, etc.) The Phoenix is intended to be superior to the other Constellation models in some ways, to do a distinctly different job... and also to be interior in others (less room for cargo and the like.) Every ship will always be a balance of some sort.

 

 

 

 

 

CIG Matt Sherman
 

 

 

 

Posted: 5:15PM
 
 
 
Hey guys, wanted to pop in here to touch on a few things Ben mentioned, along with sharing the info I had talked about in the chatroll earlier, so here are a few quick notes on the P-72's current working spec:

-Centerline gun removed, replaced with an Intake system. P-72 would be able to naturally recharge its Boost fuel now.
-Hardpoints would be 4 fixed S1's. This should lead to comparable damage against the Merlin, but no more ammo restriction of the main gun.

Overall, you'll have a faster, stronger alpha-strike ship than a Merlin, but you'll also need to be more active in managing your Power/Heat in the ship if you're trying to maintain fire with all 4 guns at once. You'll have the resources to use these weapons, but you'll also have the capability of overtaxing them, with the associated drawbacks that may bring.

A big goal with planning out the P-72 was also to make sure whatever choices we made for the design would also help grow these ships as their own platform. We've locked in a few cleanly interchangable aspects for these ships, so while there's just the P-52 nad P-72 now, we're in a better position going forward to explore more options for these snub craft.

Lastly, and to echo Ben's remarks, just because something is sold stock with more racing-leaned parts does not mean that's all it can ever do. There's going to be so much more you'll be able to do with your ships long-term when you start replacing the stock components a ship comes with. What any ship comes with off the lot is just the start of what you'll be able to do as things shape up.

That... and the Archimedes just looks amazing...

 

 
 
 

wcloaf

 
 
 
 

Developer

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CIG Ben Lesnick
 

 

 

 

Posted: 5:25PM
 
 
 


@wcloaf
Do you confirm that the Cutlass is subpar at fighting then?
All that the owners are asking for is the "two-seater dogfighting ship with unparalleled manoeuvrability, not so much focused on cargo" that was described by CR. Or even yourself, in pretty similar terms.
Not the armed freighter we have now.

Give the Cutlass speed and manoeuvrability, even if that means decreasing firepower and/or cargo for balance.

I think you might have the wrong thread! This one is for the Archimedes (the lil fighter that comes with the Constellation Phoenix.)

Edited by VoA

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Archimedes_opera_final_01.jpg

P-72 Archimedes

If you’re looking for something a little more agile, blaze among the stars with Kruger Intergalactic’s P-72 Archimedes. Whether for added security, exploring a system or simply the joy of flying, the Archimedes is the perfect companion snub craft. Featuring an extra intake and a lighter hull than its sister ship, the Archimedes delivers exceptional handling and boost capabilities in a sleek package you’ll want along for the ride.

The Archimedes is here! Concepted by Gurmukh Bhasin, the Archimedes is the speedy, luxury alternative to the P-52 Merlin. Initially included with the Constellation Phoenix, the P-72 is interchangeable with Kruger’s other snub fighter and can be attached to any snub-capable Constellation. The Archimedes is available this week as a concept sale.

BUY NOW

Archimedes_Front_01_right.jpg

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To anyone who ever desired LTI, the P-72 Archimedes is here for you. For $30 you get a LTI token which can be upgraded to any ship you eventually desire. 

I feel bad for those people with game packages in which ships were offered with 6 months insurance. With the CCU system and P-72 Archimedes with LTI, every ship should have it. LTI has always been overrated and was only meant as something special for early backers, but now, just everyone who bought a ship before the full game ships should get LTI on every ship anyway. Anyone who had a stand-alone ship with limited 6-month, 12-month, or now 3-year insurance, has probably replaced it with a CCU'd LTI ship anyway, only those poor people with game packages couldn't. 

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correction: anyone who lives in a country that CIG charged taxes for post 1-2015 and who owns ship from before the tax rise cannot melt and buy an p72 and then CCU without paying 20% extra because they now have to pay taxes. Like me :( CIG is effectively screwing all its loyal EU players who cannot use this melt-buy p72-CCU trick to get LTI on any ship.

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11 minutes ago, Booster Terrik said:

correction: anyone who lives in a country that CIG charged taxes for post 1-2015 and who owns ship from before the tax rise cannot melt and buy an p72 and then CCU without paying 20% extra because they now have to pay taxes. Like me :( CIG is effectively screwing all its loyal EU players who cannot use this melt-buy p72-CCU trick to get LTI on any ship.

As a fellow European Tax Victim, I'd say it's my gov fault;)

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4 hours ago, Booster Terrik said:

I would blame the gov but CIG made such a farce out of LTI that I prefer to blame them ;)

NO - there is NO FARCE with LTI.......  LTI is negligible and CIG has said so from the beginning....  people are "imagining" it has great value when it really doesn't and Hull Insurance costs in game will be so low that they will barely be noticeable.

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The farce is that they only give it for concept sales yes they will allow you to upgrade any cheap concept sale package to any other ship that is sold : ergo why the fuck not give it standard on any ship since that is what they are actually doing? They think the old guard is stupid or something? No guys we know we promised to stop giving out LTI and look we do : we only give it for concept sales now ..... Yeah right .....

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6 hours ago, Booster Terrik said:

They think the old guard is stupid or something? No guys we know we promised to stop giving out LTI and look we do : we only give it for concept sales now ..... Yeah right ..... = for some reason can't delete your quote - but isn't LTI debate much to do about something that is almost meaningless (negligible?)

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The question is not the value of LTI, plenty of discussions about that already. Whatever the value of LTI, it was first promised to be something for early backers, somehow got extended towards new concept ships (which I'm also fine with), and with the current CCU system and $30 Archimedes has been reduced to something every stand-alone ship should have, completely taking away something which was supposed to be a thank-you for veteran backers (which I'm not as well).

To some extend, there has been some controversy about re-introducing LTI, although I suppose most backers were fine with it since it only applied to new concept ships. But with the current CCU options and LTI ships that aren't really new concept ships (was this the first time the P-72 was even announced as concept ship?), those original backers who were promised to have LTI as something unique, disregarding its actual value in the game, can now see "their" unique reward being taken away.

In the end, it may benefit CIG from additional sales and I don't have a problem as well with all these new backers who can now benefit from LTI, whatever its value is. Ethically, however, CIG is doing its own reputation no good by compromising on their earlier promises as they see fit. Again, I don't have an issue with shifting perspectives on earlier decisions, but it remains highly questionable. In the current state, with LTI ships everywhere and the CCU system, there shouldn't be any reason why a stand-alone ship wouldn't have LTI now (apart from some additional taxes perhaps). I can imagine why veteran backers would be unhappy with this, since their unique perk has been reduced to ashes since every supporter can (and perhaps should) have it by now. Combine the LTI-debacle with the introduction of the Glaive, which I can imagine some Scythe owners wouldn't be all to happy with, the reduction of rarity of the Idris-P, as well as the intention to make the Phoenix and 890 Jump a lot less rare, perhaps to some extent also against earlier ideas communicated to backers, and I would have a little less faith in the honesty of CIG when it comes to their sales.

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24 minutes ago, BravoTwoZero said:

The question is not the value of LTI, plenty of discussions about that already. Whatever the value of LTI, it was first promised to be something for early backers, somehow got extended towards new concept ships (which I'm also fine with), and with the current CCU system and $30 Archimedes has been reduced to something every stand-alone ship should have, completely taking away something which was supposed to be a thank-you for veteran backers (which I'm not as well).

To some extend, there has been some controversy about re-introducing LTI, although I suppose most backers were fine with it since it only applied to new concept ships. But with the current CCU options and LTI ships that aren't really new concept ships (was this the first time the P-72 was even announced as concept ship?), those original backers who were promised to have LTI as something unique, disregarding its actual value in the game, can now see "their" unique reward being taken away.

I disagree.... I think it makes perfect sense how CIG is handling LTI.

Backer's today are "EARLY BACKERS" just as backers where in 2012 and 2013.   ALL BACKERS before the game is Launched officially ARE EARLY BACKERS and there should be no dividing line separating one from the other.

The game evolves ...... gets bigger.......... the Early Backers had no options to obtain the newer concept ship with LTI before (since they were not created).... thus the LIMITED TIME offer of proving LTI with those respective Concept Sales.

The P72 Archimedes has been re-defined as a separate ship that can be sold separately (and was never designed before until now) so it RIGHTFULLY should have its own Concept Sale like it is now ======= and is no different from picking up cheap LTI tokens from a Herald, Reliant, etc...

=========

The key things to remember is.......

  1. LTI Is negligible and is more of a Novelty..... (people think it has far more value than it really does = according to CIG)
  2. The P72 Is having its concept sale = no different than other ships
  3. People wanted (a vast majority) the option to CCU without loosing LTI or other perks with their original ship, etc...
  4. EVERYONE is an EARLY BACKER before the game starts (there is no dividing line and people that have supported the game years ago should not have special privileges other than titles and maybe cosmetic flair items... or things like physcial goods, Mile High Club, etc...) ====== you don't want to have new backers feel like second class citizens right?

++++++++++++++++

ALL of this hurts the Grey Market...... which I think is a VERY GOOD THING...... and puts a big smile on my face (and others) = and allows more of the $$ to go directly to CIG :D

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@VoA I don't care about LTI (even though I am a gold ticket holder and Original backer) but ffs CIG should stop dicking around and give everyone who buys a ship before launch LTI. The current system is completely FUBAR'd : if it everyone can get LTI through buying cheap concept ships and then CCU-ing them then drop all pretences of LTI being something special and give it to everyone (esp. since they keep stating it's not a big deal). The current policy is just another example of CGI trying to appease Original backers but actually not careing 1 bit about them: they have already sold them ships and now they only care about selling ships to new customers.

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35 minutes ago, Booster Terrik said:

@VoA I don't care about LTI (even though I am a gold ticket holder and Original backer) but ffs CIG should stop dicking around and give everyone who buys a ship before launch LTI. The current system is completely FUBAR'd : if it everyone can get LTI through buying cheap concept ships and then CCU-ing them then drop all pretences of LTI being something special and give it to everyone (esp. since they keep stating it's not a big deal). The current policy is just another example of CGI trying to appease Original backers but actually not careing 1 bit about them: they have already sold them ships and now they only care about selling ships to new customers.

I still disagree.... Ben has been stating (Ever since LTI was introduced) that Hull Insurance (thus LTI is negligible).   They did get a majority of the backers asking for LTI as an option for the new ships (at least those responding in the RSI forums).  Likewise most people wanted CCUs.   The idea of a week-long concept sale for NEW ships (to have an option for LTI for that respective ship)...... is a GREAT SOLUTION in my mind.

I have been pointing out for more than a year now on the SCB forums that you can get LTI on everything if you are patient with the CCU system.  Many didn't believe me then...... and continued to think that they needed to go to the Grey Market to get LTI.  It still requires work and careful planning to get this NOVELTY --- LTI....... and again New Backers should not be made into second class citizens with this negligible LTI  issue === when everyone that backs the game before launch is an EARLY BACKER.... regardless of if it was in 2012, 2013, etc... or today....

========

The way I see it is the only people that got "FUBAR'd" is the GREY MARKET people....... of which this puts a big SMILE on my face (and many others feel the same way) = giving more $$ pledge money to CIG :D

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Hails All just my 2 cents again and I am sure I will be shouted down as usual so correct me if I am wrong here, but a lot of word of mouth from Ben and the other designers say LTI = NO BIG DEAL!  However as the game is not even playable and so many things change on a daily basis, how can we actually accept and believe that LTI WILL BE NO BIG DEAL!  If it isn't than CIG is going through a TON of TROUBLE  for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON allowing LTI to continue in the Universe. Perhaps I am a little jaded but I believe anytime a Government (CIG) has the ability to take profits etc from the worker bees it WILL!  It is going to be very hard to balance someone with a fleet of Transport ships making tons of money on the early runs against someone with a lone Aurora trying to get by.  We all know CIG wont let someone get so far ahead as to diminish the game for the new players, so I feel the counter balance will be excessive cost on fuel and insurances. Just my opinion not based on the real PU but no different than anyone elses opinion as the PU is not playable at this time.

 

Sparkie

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It's a damn good looking ship.  I don't own anything large enough to mount it (Think it could fit in the bomb bays of a Retaliator?) but plan on getting it after class today anyways.  Of all the ships advertised, this strikes me the most as a luxury ship for the sake of going fast, and that sounds perfect as a side ship for me.

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