Small Fighters & Long Distance Jumping

[Flarebrass]

Hello Everyone,

So I was brainstorming a bit today and was thinking about the intended role of some of the ships. For all intent and purposes, lets use the Gladius in this example as it will outlay a good base for this discussion. 

The Gladius is labelled as a "Short Range Patrol Fighter", which means that it is great for dogfighting light-to-medium fighters in both offensive and defensive situations, but has minimal distance allowance as it is meant to be supported by a starbase or carrier of sorts. With this said, I am curious if there will be any type of implementation of machinery to allow something like the Gladius to venture farther than its original intended range.

It is known that the Gladius has 3 variants, one of which is a stealth/recon variant. If it wanted to do some recon outside of its normal operating range, it would either have to be very close to where it is stationed (which imho, is a waste as for the most part, you will know whats going on in your home star system), or be deployed from a Carrier in deep space to complete such a mission. But what if there was a 3rd option?

This is where the idea comes into play. We all remember Star Wars Episode II (some of which wish to forget). We all remember the scene where Obi-Wan attached his starfighter to a Hyperdrive Docking Ring for a long distance, out of system jump to a investigate his said mission. This ring allowed him to go much further than the original intended distance of his starfighter, without the support of a base or carrier. Here is a link to what I am talking about: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive_docking_ring

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This ring would allow for small ships to jump further overall due to it having its own hyperdrive and additional fuel. As exampled above, this would be a great idea for stealth recon ships, as they could go on their own, get in to gather their information and then get out safely all while being small and therefore less likely to be spotted by any enemy forces that may be in the area (as compared to right now having to send something like an Idris in to deploy the Gladius thus being much more likely to be spotted).

There would obviously be pros and cons to this, which I will list below (there may be more than this, but these stand out very clearly and are great starting points):

Pros: 

- Smaller ships can jump further for said assigned mission

- Ability to conserve fuel for their mission rather than using it to attempt to jump there on their own

- No parent vessel to rely on. Less chance of being spotted by enemy forces

- More versatility for newer players that do not have access to the larger, longer distance-capable ships

- Can be stored in a friendly space port with all the other larger ships or within planet distance (see SW:E2 reference; watch the scene!)

Cons:

- When attached to the ring, combat is not a viable option. Your movement and agility is severely reduced and weapons disengaged due to the ring being in the way

- Detaching from the ring allows normal ship play (maneuverability, agility & offensive power), but your ring is not shielded and does not move when you are disengaged from it. This leaves the ring vulnerable and easily destroyed leaving you stranded if not strategically placed/hidden in your current enemy/neutral system

- A costly upgrade. We know hulls are the "cheaper" part of getting the ship of your dreams as it is the upgrades that are costly to get the best-of-the-best. The ring is along the same lines and as it is in essence just a "large" upgrade item. It will be expensive 

- Additional cost: Maintenance/upgrades (equipping more efficient fuel tanks and jump drives), refueling the ring, and spaceport storage costs

 

Here is where we ask the question: Would something like this be a cool and convenient implementation from the standpoint of Star Citizen which would allow players a bit more versatility in smaller ships? 

I personally think this would be very cool to see as you could take some of your less intended ships that are not traditionally meant for long distance, and allow them to have the option of going out further into the verse without having to rely on something larger (which normally means more people, more coordination and more UEC).  It would not be "over powered" as it is still one-ring-per-one-small-ship and god forbid if they came across anything that is hostile and larger than they are after the jump!

Look forward to see your opinion on this as I think it would be a cool implementation by CIG if they have the time (which lets be honest, they have so much going on right now, something like this compared to some of their other duties would be a walk in the park!)

Cheers for now!,

 

Flarebrass 

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by Flarebrass

[Fizzlefuse]

I'm thinking the most likely way to extend a small craft's fuel capacity are extended fuel tanks for smaller craft, much like modern day drop tanks.. but without the dropping part. 

There are already some bigger ships with extended fuel tanks and I don;t see why CIG couldn't do that for fighters as well.

As for interstellar travel, we don't have a lot of information regarding fuel and consumption.. though I believe it has been mentioned QD and Jumppoint navigation will use different types of fuel.

If you want to travel longer distances in a fighter, the likely choice would be the Vanguard which is classified as a deep space fighter.
That or have some people stand by with a Starlancer:)

[Flarebrass]

The only down side to fuel tanks is that they would replace pylon mounts, which would reduce the overall missile count of the ship. If there was a way to avoid that no-missile issue, it would be a beautiful day. Giving the option to use the fuel tanks or the ring, imo, would be the best case scenario as each have their valid pros and cons. 

Most of the larger ships that they have currently though that are able to go further have a sort of "built in" increased fuel amount, rather than removing missiles or guns or what have you. The smaller ships dont really have that increase option just due to their size which reverts us back to the good ol' drop tanks haha.

If the different types of flight do use different fuel, that could be a really good thing! We will have to wait for more information on this before a true decision can be made i guess.

I put the vanguard in the large ship scenario i listed above. The extra fuel is built in and does not require it to lose something to gain that extra fuel. Again, smaller ships are a different league all together. I have a Star-G for my squad, but I truly think that it will have to be escorted by something just as large anywhere outside of friendly/neutral space. But who knows, get enough small fighters, keep them all fueled and see what happens haha.

Flarebrass 

[Riley Egret]

The only down side to fuel tanks is that they would replace pylon mounts, which would reduce the overall missile count of the ship. If there was a way to avoid that no-missile issue, it would be a beautiful day. Giving the option to use the fuel tanks or the ring, imo, would be the best case scenario as each have their valid pros and cons. 

Most of the larger ships that they have currently though that are able to go further have a sort of "built in" increased fuel amount, rather than removing missiles or guns or what have you. The smaller ships dont really have that increase option just due to their size which reverts us back to the good ol' drop tanks haha.

If the different types of flight do use different fuel, that could be a really good thing! We will have to wait for more information on this before a true decision can be made i guess.

I put the vanguard in the large ship scenario i listed above. The extra fuel is built in and does not require it to lose something to gain that extra fuel. Again, smaller ships are a different league all together. I have a Star-G for my squad, but I truly think that it will have to be escorted by something just as large anywhere outside of friendly/neutral space. But who knows, get enough small fighters, keep them all fueled and see what happens haha.

Flarebrass 

Exactly, pylons already do that. On top of that, the range issue is a tactical element that changes how a ship will be represented in the PU (I'm looking at you Hornet), I don't really think we need a deus ex machina exterior ( and so not needing any slot to work) gizmo to flatten that ( you wouldn't want external weapon pods à la Car Wars for example to increase the weapon loadout, so why doing it with the range).

If you don't want to be spotted use sthealth/long range scouts, otherwise what's the point in them?

Third it would take a hell of a time to model a ring for each ship and I think they'd better spend on the PU, SQ42 and whatsnot.

Thumbs up for the reference, but I don't think it fits SC.

[Osclin]

The only down side to fuel tanks is that they would replace pylon mounts, which would reduce the overall missile count of the ship. If there was a way to avoid that no-missile issue, it would be a beautiful day. Giving the option to use the fuel tanks or the ring, imo, would be the best case scenario as each have their valid pros and cons. 

Most of the larger ships that they have currently though that are able to go further have a sort of "built in" increased fuel amount, rather than removing missiles or guns or what have you. The smaller ships dont really have that increase option just due to their size which reverts us back to the good ol' drop tanks haha.

If the different types of flight do use different fuel, that could be a really good thing! We will have to wait for more information on this before a true decision can be made i guess.

I put the vanguard in the large ship scenario i listed above. The extra fuel is built in and does not require it to lose something to gain that extra fuel. Again, smaller ships are a different league all together. I have a Star-G for my squad, but I truly think that it will have to be escorted by something just as large anywhere outside of friendly/neutral space. But who knows, get enough small fighters, keep them all fueled and see what happens haha.

Flarebrass 

Using drop tanks on wing/fuselage hardpoints would be the ideal solution to both extending the range of small fighters AND maintaining balance.  In order to exceed its usual operating radius a short range fighter should have to give up some weapons payload to accommodate the fuel tanks.  To gain its extended range and its redundant systems and heavy armor while keeping a heavy weapon load, the Vanguard had to sacrifice some(possibly quite a bit) of its maneuverability, and there does need to be a trade-off for smaller ships if they wish to gain something beyond their original design specs.  In this case losing some weapons for range seems reasonable.  If that doesn't provide enough weapons to complete the mission, then the operator shouldn't take the mission or bring a ship more suitable for the task.

[LightMonk]

No & Yes.
As it stand, the game is already complex enough & there is absolutly no sense to make it more complex.
I personally probably wouldn't have a problem with restrictions and on top iterations but it would make a lot of newcomers suffer.
Newcomers are important because a game needs a consatent supply of new players while older players drop out of the game, which is currently the downfall of EVE.

[Osclin]

Any ship larger than the snub(parasite) fighters will have the ability to equip a jump drive, that we already know.  On top of that these ships(non-snubs) should, and hopefully will, have the ability to carry enough fuel, either internally or with drop tanks, to leave their base, travel to their system's jump point, traverse it, and travel to that system's station/planet/fueling point.  Engaging in operations at the outer limits of fuel capacity carries with it risks and costs which add a level of skill(decision making), and suspense to the game, making proper choices(and learning from poor ones) can provide interesting gameplay without being so punishing that new players feel put upon.

 Larger ships of course should be able(provided they make wise choices regarding modules, etc) to make more jumps and traverse multiple systems before running out of fuel.  If they do it right starter players will be able to access enough content/earn enough money in their home system and adjoining systems to enjoy themselves/expand their fleet, while there is an appropriate incentive to upgrade to more capable vessels for certain tasks.  

[pilot-john]

Exactly, pylons already do that. On top of that, the range issue is a tactical element that changes how a ship will be represented in the PU (I'm looking at you Hornet), I don't really think we need a deus ex machina exterior ( and so not needing any slot to work) gizmo to flatten that ( you wouldn't want external weapon pods à la Car Wars for example to increase the weapon loadout, so why doing it with the range).

If you don't want to be spotted use sthealth/long range scouts, otherwise what's the point in them?

Third it would take a hell of a time to model a ring for each ship and I think they'd better spend on the PU, SQ42 and whatsnot.

Thumbs up for the reference, but I don't think it fits SC.

If one could add range to say a hornet without losing weapons, what would be the use of carriers? The entire gameplay for carriers is to bring excellent fighters to the dog fight. If carriers could be avoided, no one would use them because of their wasted man-power (i.e. crew, rearmers, and a big-assed ship to protect.

Edited August 24, 2015 by pilot-john

[Flarebrass]

@pilot-john I wouldn't necessarily say a carrier would be wasted. That is only one aspect of a carrier overall. The carrier also has a ton of fire power, the ability to repair and reload its fighters and so on. You still need the carriers, but this would add the option to go on your own further (albeit more dangerous). Carriers still have their place (and it would still be a big one regardless). Its more of a scouting/bounty hunter option than it is a full fledged assault option, as you need that repair, reload and extra large firepower to be effective! 

[Taldren]

I really wish I knew how "fuel" was going to work. 

Do jump points even need fuel?

I assume that Quantum drive will require fuel and your computer won't let you start a trip you don't have the fuel for.

What "fuel" is used during sub Quantum speeds? Like in dogfights? We regenerate boost pretty quickly. 

Are there multiple types of fuel?

So little information.

[Wyvyrias]

I really wish I knew how "fuel" was going to work. 

Do jump points even need fuel?

I assume that Quantum drive will require fuel and your computer won't let you start a trip you don't have the fuel for.

What "fuel" is used during sub Quantum speeds? Like in dogfights? We regenerate boost pretty quickly. 

Are there multiple types of fuel?

So little information.

I'm sure every kind of movement will need fuel somehow.
And I highly doubt you will be able to use the QD during dogfights. That'll be game breaking.

[FoxChard]

Nope, no thank you.  First: Docking Hyperdrive rings are a Star Wars universe creation and while they probably appear elsewhere are too iconic (or seem that way) to want to take them and apply them to SC.  

Second: while small fighters are capable of jumps, I see this as their ability to deploy into a combat formation then jump directly into battle.  We all know Eve with its massive gate battles.  We don't know yet what will happen with jump points (will we have similar battles at the entrances to a system-or will there be some other game mechanic in play to make the exit point unpredictable?), however I suspect that being fully prepared for combat will require some small ships to jump in, at least as scouts before you commit the really valuable stuff.

This does not mean that small carrier-based type fighters should be capable of long range.  They should be capable of a anywhere up to two or three system jumps out and back-or-four to six jumps total with accompanying in-system transit on normal drives.  This limited range will require them to stop and restock at various facilities.  Real aircraft, while able to fly and conduct aerial refueling still require maintenance after prolonged operation and the crew also require rest.  Extreme cases do exist-B-2 and other strategic aircraft can and do fly missions greater than 24hrs in duration, but those are extreme and currently we don't have a strategic bomber analogue that can do that type of mission in game.  (Gladiator is carrier based, Retaliator has beds for the entire crew)

Besides, without artificially imposing range restrictions, players may have no reason to stop and enjoy the scenery that CIG is working so hard to create.  That new Aurora pilot may not see a reason to ever go planetside to explore the dark reaches of Terra if he can just jump 15 times from station to station.  Big ships-apart from their larger weapons and cargo capacities may be supplanted by players just flying hornets everywhere...and why wouldn't you?  Cutlass and Vanguard are essentially long range fighters with additional crew space, beds, and cargo capacity-for which they are less maneuverable (well...relatively) and not quite as fast.  Would players even bother with them if they could just Arena Commander their way through the game in an M50?

[Osclin]

I'm hoping that QD and normal space flight(including boost) require the same fuel type.  I'd like jump engines to run off the same type as well, but any suggestion of that has always devolved into people freaking out about being stranded beyond nowhere and drifting forever...

Primary reason I want QD and normal flight to use the same fuel is that I want things set up so that choices made matter.  Selecting a top-end dogfighter for a mission near the edge of its range should require tradeoffs: equipping drop tanks would allow a longer period of combat at the expense of weapon capacity, foregoing drop tanks would ensure maximum firepower at the expense of time on target, chasing a kill or trying to save everyone when at or near bingo fuel could leave you stranded.  These types of decisions, and every other permutation conceivable when weighing all the other ship types and module options and weapon loadouts and mission types, make the game more involved and lends depth and gravitas to play.  It also provides other types of gameplay, from espionage and smuggling to establish weapon and fuel caches, to logistics(calling ahead to establish a rendezvous with an npc refueler or organizing repair, rearm, and refueling operations with the org or other groups of players).

In the safer systems where we and all new players will start a refueling station is likely never to be TOO far away, and there will always be players and npcs in-system to come refuel you for a price.  Where a well thought out system that requires and rewards resource management  really comes into its own it on the fringes where civilization  hasn't reached(and pirates lurk) or within the territories of organizations at war.  

[Taldren]

I'm sure every kind of movement will need fuel somehow.
And I highly doubt you will be able to use the QD during dogfights. That'll be game breaking.

I didn't say that QD could be used during dogsights. I said sub-QD like that used in dog fights.

[Aethio]

Sub-QD could also be potentially game breaking. Think about it. You wait behind an asteroid in a Vanguard, ready to pounce on that pirate Lass you know is coming this way. There he is! You rush out, all guns blazing, missiles flying, everything going at that one ship, when suddenly, you miss. Every. Single. One. You recheck the Lass's position. Oh, it seems he is a hundred meters away from where he was when you shot at him. You retreat, sullenly, and sit and wait for the next user, hoping against hope that he doesn't know to jump.

[Fizzlefuse]

During the gamescom demo they already showed a spool-up for the quantum drive, though it went rather quickly, and we have yet to learn how interdiction would work. For all we know, your ship's computer might not even let you spool up the QD if it detects incoming fire on the shields... Or something like that. I believe someone at CIG also mentioned you might not be able to use QD in quick succession, meaning it has a short cool down. All im saying is that CIG will have a system in place that allows you to pull someone out of Quantum travel or prevent them from jumping away... Otherwise pirate/police/bountyhunter professions wouldn't work.

[aeon5ind]

That would allow for the profession of fuel tanker which could travel with fleets and do in space refueling allowing for longer integrated fleet movement Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[Taldren]

Sub-QD could also be potentially game breaking. Think about it. You wait behind an asteroid in a Vanguard, ready to pounce on that pirate Lass you know is coming this way. There he is! You rush out, all guns blazing, missiles flying, everything going at that one ship, when suddenly, you miss. Every. Single. One. You recheck the Lass's position. Oh, it seems he is a hundred meters away from where he was when you shot at him. You retreat, sullenly, and sit and wait for the next user, hoping against hope that he doesn't know to jump.

Sub-QD is what we are flying now in Arena Commander. There are only 3 speeds in SC ... Sub-QD, QD, and Jump. 

[Aethio]

Of course. Please forgive my lack of understanding, I thought that sub-QD was short-jump in the stead of normal space, apologies, it was late.

[Wyvyrias]

Sub-QD is what we are flying now in Arena Commander. There are only 3 speeds in SC ... Sub-QD, QD, and Jump. 

You forgot "static" and "Greycat".

[Osclin]

and ludicrous speed and plaid...these things are very complex