C.A.S(Close Air Support); why dont we have it?

[faquarl25]

3 hours ago, Arcanus said:

Ahhhh yes, the good old ZSU-23-4 Shilka...  you're absolutely right about it's effect on attack helicopter operations.   But for that reason (and so many others), I say that CAS is nice, but if my ass is (for some reason) stuck in the middle of a firefight and pinned down, I don't want CAS I want NGS...

Naval mu#h@rf*ckng  Gunfire Support!

Nothing says peace of mind, like the calm sound of a voice telling you:

"Orbital bombardment inbound in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1...."

 

 

Orbital bombardment is nice, but nothing says support like the roar of artillery. Not that we will get any any artillery in this game though....

 

However, I am not sure if we will get any orbital support at all. The way the game works, I do not think that our weapons will be able to do anything short of the bengals cannon. However, the roar of gladiators overhead could be heartening to the lads on the ground.

[AlbireoWolfe]

9 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

Orbital bombardment is nice, but nothing says support like the roar of artillery. Not that we will get any any artillery in this game though....

 

However, I am not sure if we will get any orbital support at all. The way the game works, I do not think that our weapons will be able to do anything short of the bengals cannon. However, the roar of gladiators overhead could be heartening to the lads on the ground.

I would rebut this, however, I do so with caution, as I point to Size 5 weaponry. Referencing, initially, the Idris-M and it's reference sheet, I'm going to play to a bit of speculation, but nothing unreasonable in terms of capability from what we've seen.

The Idris has multiple Size 5 Turret Mounts, and to date, we've only been given a single Size 5 Weapon through Electronic Access. The Behring M7A Laser Cannon, beyond this, we have a few Tier 3s, a plethora of Tier 2s, and I believe just one or two Tier 4s, most notably, the C-788 "COMBINE" Ballistic Cannon. Lasers pack a punch, even across a distance, but they have a weakness in the form of diffusion, shoot light into an atmosphere, you'll get atmoshperic diffusion, that's how we get our pretty blue skies and radiant sunsets. It would also weaken laser weaponry drastically. But, ballistics, that's entering another territory.

We don't know, entirely, the composition of the rounds fired from the C-788, but even in Arena Commander, I've witnessed these things do horrible damage from the opposite side of the map to people they weren't intending to hit. Think of that scene in Mass Effect, with the Firing Team all standing around the Deck Officer, berating them about 'Not Eyeballing it or playing Cowboy' in space. If the rounds fired can survive the distance and atmospheric stresses of firing down to the planet's surface, Orbital Support could entirely be possible with Tier 4 and Tier 5 Weaponry.

Then we come into the fun of High End Missile Launchers and Torpedo launchers, there is absolutely no confirmation of laser locks or air to surface lockons from orbit, yes. But FAC/JTAC could coordinate from orbit with Retaliator Bombers or potentially even Polaris Crews for High Fidelity Oribital Support.

[faquarl25]

3 hours ago, Wolfepack said:

I would rebut this, however, I do so with caution, as I point to Size 5 weaponry. Referencing, initially, the Idris-M and it's reference sheet, I'm going to play to a bit of speculation, but nothing unreasonable in terms of capability from what we've seen.

The Idris has multiple Size 5 Turret Mounts, and to date, we've only been given a single Size 5 Weapon through Electronic Access. The Behring M7A Laser Cannon, beyond this, we have a few Tier 3s, a plethora of Tier 2s, and I believe just one or two Tier 4s, most notably, the C-788 "COMBINE" Ballistic Cannon. Lasers pack a punch, even across a distance, but they have a weakness in the form of diffusion, shoot light into an atmosphere, you'll get atmoshperic diffusion, that's how we get our pretty blue skies and radiant sunsets. It would also weaken laser weaponry drastically. But, ballistics, that's entering another territory.

We don't know, entirely, the composition of the rounds fired from the C-788, but even in Arena Commander, I've witnessed these things do horrible damage from the opposite side of the map to people they weren't intending to hit. Think of that scene in Mass Effect, with the Firing Team all standing around the Deck Officer, berating them about 'Not Eyeballing it or playing Cowboy' in space. If the rounds fired can survive the distance and atmospheric stresses of firing down to the planet's surface, Orbital Support could entirely be possible with Tier 4 and Tier 5 Weaponry.

Then we come into the fun of High End Missile Launchers and Torpedo launchers, there is absolutely no confirmation of laser locks or air to surface lockons from orbit, yes. But FAC/JTAC could coordinate from orbit with Retaliator Bombers or potentially even Polaris Crews for High Fidelity Oribital Support.

I was not saying that it would not be possible for it to be done with real life physics. All I am saying is that CIG eventually need to delete those rounds eventually. That doesn't happen in arena commander as they can delete them as they hit the end of the simulation. However, in the PU, they don't have that luxury and I would  not be surprised if they deleted them beyond 200% of their stated range. 

[AlbireoWolfe]

1 hour ago, faquarl25 said:

I was not saying that it would not be possible for it to be done with real life physics. All I am saying is that CIG eventually need to delete those rounds eventually. That doesn't happen in arena commander as they can delete them as they hit the end of the simulation. However, in the PU, they don't have that luxury and I would  not be surprised if they deleted them beyond 200% of their stated range. 

Well, here's where we run into an impasse. We're at the fringe of known data and upcoming changes, as well as unknown/untested hypothesis.

There is something we can do about this, and I propose we get a team together to do just this in Crusader . Find the estimate range of the C-788, fly a straight line out to this distance (Probably have to trade ships to set a way marker), and take the shot. Then make incremental range increases until we know the maximum distance of the shot's raytrace. This, coupled with effective tests across the board with other weapons would give us a tactical "leg-up" in knowing our weapons systems. Especially once flight speeds change, imagine a multi-crew gunner roaring in eyeballing shots outside of range because we're that well versed and speeds are slowed back down.

[faquarl25]

3 minutes ago, Wolfepack said:

Well, here's where we run into an impasse. We're at the fringe of known data and upcoming changes, as well as unknown/untested hypothesis.

There is something we can do about this, and I propose we get a team together to do just this in Crusader . Find the estimate range of the C-788, fly a straight line out to this distance (Probably have to trade ships to set a way marker), and take the shot. Then make incremental range increases until we know the maximum distance of the shot's raytrace. This, coupled with effective tests across the board with other weapons would give us a tactical "leg-up" in knowing our weapons systems. Especially once flight speeds change, imagine a multi-crew gunner roaring in eyeballing shots outside of range because we're that well versed and speeds are slowed back down.

This would be a great advantage for the org. If there is a plan to complete this it would be best to shift this over to the Imperium section of the forums.

[AlbireoWolfe]

Just now, faquarl25 said:

This would be a great advantage for the org. If there is a plan to complete this it would be best to shift this over to the Imperium section of the forums.

Not one so far, but, I'm sure it can be arranged.

[faquarl25]

Just now, Wolfepack said:

Not one so far, but, I'm sure it can be arranged.

Would it not be easier just to look at the code involved with each weapon? People have mined all the other data for the weapons.

[AlbireoWolfe]

6 minutes ago, faquarl25 said:

Would it not be easier just to look at the code involved with each weapon? People have mined all the other data for the weapons.

Yes, no, and maybe? 

• Yes: Definitely easier, definitely less time consuming, definitely less messy.
• No: Community Effort, trial and error, and having fun messing around together.
• Maybe: The coding may be patchwork and not all tied intrinsically together. The weapon's immediate coding may only account for the immediate raytrace, a secondary code may exist for follow-through and factors like bullet drop due to gravity. We've seen several times in Bugsmashers where they're dropping out legacy code and having to work out legacy code, so, the best route, still in my opinion, is on hand tests.

[faquarl25]

2 minutes ago, Wolfepack said:

Yes, no, and maybe? 

• Yes: Definitely easier, definitely less time consuming, definitely less messy.
• No: Community Effort, trial and error, and having fun messing around together.
• Maybe: The coding may be patchwork and not all tied intrinsically together. The weapon's immediate coding may only account for the immediate raytrace, a secondary code may exist for follow-through and factors like bullet drop due to gravity. We've seen several times in Bugsmashers where they're dropping out legacy code and having to work out legacy code, so, the best route, still in my opinion, is on hand tests.

It would probably be easier in a vacuum. However, on planets, physics takes over gravity would wreck those numbers.

[AlbireoWolfe]

Just now, faquarl25 said:

It would probably be easier in a vacuum. However, on planets, physics takes over gravity would wreck those numbers.

But, it tests a hypothesis about game code until 3.0 release drops, to allow us to actually test on planetary surfaces.

[Arcanus]

This would be a great advantage for the org. If there is a plan to complete this it would be best to shift this over to the Imperium section of the forums.

Well, we might be able to test size 5 lasers (and other Size 5 weapons, once they're available) if they can get mounted on to the Starfarer... But before we can test their suitability for Naval Gunfire Support, we would need CIG to implement their procedural planet tech... Which we aren't expecting to see until Alpha 3.0

Now having said that, it's not the Size 5 lasers that excite me for NGS... In my mind, that would be like trying to use a 30-35mm Oerlikon found on a modern naval Corvette (usually for air defense) for NGS. Sure, nothing wants to get hit by that gun directly... But it is wasn't ever intended for taking out another (military) naval ship, much less for shore bombardment. No, if I'm talking NGS, I'm either talking about a high-end missile/torpedo salvo, or some serious "heavy metal" like the Size 7 turrets on a Javelin-class Destroyer or the "zestroyer" rail gun on the Idris-M class Frigate. Sending a few rounds from one of those downrange (or in this case, down the gravity well) of any conflict should make any enemies seriously contemplate their desire to be elsewhere & reevaluate their poor life choices. [emoji6]

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[AlbireoWolfe]

58 minutes ago, Arcanus said:

 

Well, we might be able to test size 5 lasers (and other Size 5 weapons, once they're available) if they can get mounted on to the Starfarer... But before we can test their suitability for Naval Gunfire Support, we would need CIG to implement their procedural planet tech... Which we aren't expecting to see until Alpha 3.0

Now having said that, it's not the Size 5 lasers that excite me for NGS... In my mind, that would be like trying to use a 30-35mm Oerlikon found on a modern naval Corvette (usually for air defense) for NGS. Sure, nothing wants to get hit by that gun directly... But it is wasn't ever intended for taking out another (military) naval ship, much less for shore bombardment. No, if I'm talking NGS, I'm either talking about a high-end missile/torpedo salvo, or some serious "heavy metal" like the Size 7 turrets on a Javelin-class Destroyer or the "zestroyer" rail gun on the Idris-M class Frigate. Sending a few rounds from one of those downrange (or in this case, down the gravity well) of any conflict should make any enemies seriously contemplate their desire to be elsewhere & reevaluate their poor life choices.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 

 

Dear Lords, yes, but there's a mixed presentation to put to point as well. NGS in this scenario can be all-consuming or pinpoint, with practice. Size 5 Ballistic Weaponry for pinpoint, Size 5+ artillery for all-consuming.

It boils down to a doctrine of, is there CAS readily available and "safe" to deploy, versus is Naval Support available currently? As well as, for both, are we withdrawn enough for use of heavy ordinance? Which in SC could become a quick NO to either question if reinforcements arrive in air or space, or enemy infantry advances.

Fair assessment?

[Booster Terrik]

No need to use any high velocity guns if you want to attack ground targets from space guys: just drop a solid metal cannister of the desired size out of the door of your ship while accelerating at max thust and pointed at a planet and then wait until that "meteor" hits the surface. Dropping rocks from space is the most cost efficient way of killing of the whole planet (or small parts of it)  

It could be that this causes some friendly fire casualties because aiming these dumb bombs is gonna be a bitch but hey we can always recruit more grunts and there is no shortage of rocks in space so we can Always try again 

[Donut]

lol @Booster Terrik Just drop a giant conex full of tannerite and when the pirates go to investigate, shoot it and it'll go boom

[Caldon]

Just to make sure.

[Zee]

I came across this thread just a few days ago and with the implementation of Alpha 3.0, atmospheric flight is now a reality. Also, with the introduction of a true gunship in the Hammerhead by Aegis, we can no longer worry about not having proper air support for planetary landings or ground assaults. 

I was so impressed with the ship that I purchased multiple. My entire hangar has been reconfigured toward a purely military role. I'm fully equipped to escort ships of all kinds or provide excellent coverage from the sky to effectively rain down death and destruction from above! 

Don't worry, I got your 6!

[Brightmist]

Hammerhead is the epitome of CAS pretty much.

I also like Rocket Pods being available for ships other than Delta, those should help a lot making quick work of ground targets.

[Zee]

2 hours ago, Brightmist said:

Hammerhead is the epitome of CAS pretty much.

I also like Rocket Pods being available for ships other than Delta, those should help a lot making quick work of ground targets.

Agreed! The only question I have is where the additional two unmanned turrets are. I look forward to the Q&A segment for this ship.

[FoxChard]

9 hours ago, Zarian said:

Agreed! The only question I have is where the additional two unmanned turrets are. I look forward to the Q&A segment for this ship.

I think the Dev's were misspeaking. I think it has 6 turrets with 24 guns only. I think that it may come default with two of those turrets with already installed remote blades, or the art we saw is incorrect and that only four turrets can be manned directly.

[GidgettheMidget]

I made it to the second page before I noticed this was from 2015. Any new info as far as CAS on planet side may work? Just got the game last week and would be interested in some CAS tests.

[macgivre]

You can see a demo of the battlefield mode (theatre of war) that feature a CAS sequence

So yes it is implemented 😊

You basically take any ship and fire like a dumbass at anything on the ground 😈

[GidgettheMidget]

4 hours ago, macgivre said:

 

You basically take any ship and fire like a dumbass at anything on the ground 😈

Well I have IRL JTAC experience so building a standard call for support, or running a few tests is somthing I'd enjoy doing. Especially at this stage where it's hard to navigate without maps and whatnot. If we can train ground personnel and pilots to work well now just think of the possibilities once planet NAV gets implemented. 

[macgivre]

+1 

 

At this stage I think (tbc) that you can navigate to someone on the planet with the friend system

The system seems to be quite accurate

You can use flashlight purple stick to point a specific direction

 

But there is clearly a lack of navigation and pointer tools ...

 

You have also the problematic of the weapon range : you have no weapon that allow for engagement at high altitude (limitation to 2 to 3 km for size 2 weapons)

This limitation may be discarded with higher weapon size though