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goonswarm returns?!?!

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:godwin:

 

@Captain Underpants,

 

My comment on nazi jokes isn't an example of godwin's rule catching up with this thread. It's a fact that the goons try to make fun of things like this, which people like me find offensive. I've had people in my own family killed by the nazis and I don't find such things funny.

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@Captain Underpants,

 

My comment on nazi jokes isn't an example of godwin's rule catching up with this thread. It's a fact that the goons try to make fun of things like this, which people like me find offensive. I've had people in my own family killed by the nazis and I don't find such things funny.

 

In what way was I making fun of it? I was declaring Godwin because you brought up Nazis. I never mentioned them. Nobody else did. You had to take the conversation into that dark area. You accuse us of making Nazi jokes. That's pretty poor form. If you're offended by the fact SCB has the :godwin: emote, you should take it up with the administrators.

 

Goonrathi have members who's lives were touched by WW2 atrocities. We have many Jews, some Germans, and a couple of Polish. I challenge you to find a single example of Goonrathi members making light of those atrocities.

 

Just on Godwin, we actually take that quite seriously. To us in our culture, if you Godwin a discussion you have jumped the shark. You have reached the lowest point in a discussion that you had to refer to Hitler or the Nazis. In my opinion, if you Godwin a discussion, you automatically lose any argument and all your credibility. You refering to Nazis has caused this conversation to jump the shark. Nobody should be using anything like that to make a point about a computer game, it is disrespectful.

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i would think of that alot of people have a stigmatised view about the goons which is understandable

but i think the discussion here atm did turn some wrong corners it didnt need to have.

Because of stigma.

The Verse is great enough and there are enough NPCs to have fun with or to play like one desires there is nothing to argue about that one fact.

But knowing humans the distance even of an infinite universe might not stop some humans to hate each other for what ever (no people in this topic ment just an comparison).

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You accuse us of making Nazi jokes. That's pretty poor form. [...]

 

Goonrathi have members who's lives were touched by WW2 atrocities. We have many Jews, some Germans, and a couple of Polish. I challenge you to find a single example of Goonrathi members making light of those atrocities.

 

Maybe not so much from the Goonrathi (yet), but there are plenty of examples from other goons.

 

 

uQnCGF2.png

 

QInRlcA.png

A tasteless one:m2ar5RX.png    

 

 

... and the real thing: nsA3j.jpg

 

 

 

More tasteless things:

 

SenatorIvy_JEWSsmall1.jpg    mwells-cubed_elitissm.jpg

 

 

Fantry_leadership.jpg    Unkempt_nztubbies1.jpg

 

 

 

Oh, and a few examples from when the Goonrathi stole Valinor's logo art, to make fun of them:

 

i6C4OPVdXaYQm.gif

 

iiheyRO7z319O.png

 

 

ibpVm4XvTkahEX.png

 

 

i3lF7am5bT2tM.png

 

 

 

And the real thing: Cypher_Kaldarese.png

Edited by Viking

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They've been doing this since 1999 and they'll be doing it long after SC servers are shut down and we've all stopped gaming and our kids are in their 20s.

 

I'm not gonna say you're wrong, I'm gonna say that the more you dont like something they do - the more they'll do it.

 

Also the Agents of SPERG one is only tasteless because of SPERG. Unless you consider Marvel (you know them I'm sure) Nazis

 

Only way to beat goons is by beating them :). And even then BoB made an effort of it from 2005, and look where we are now, Imperium [ ;) ] control 60% of the map. We'll see how it works in SC, but if CIG start babysitting people and banning for slight offenses (I'm not including the Nazi imagery here, but I'd assume they wont be using it in game, remember, SA is not GSF, SA is not Goonrathi, and GSF/Goonrathi is not a direct representation of SA (much like theres different people in IMP, theres different people in SA and in different Goon organizations)). If they do use the Nazi stuff I'm sure there will be reprecussions, but again, if CIG start babysitting people who are offended by everything, the sandbox disappears.

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Yes, as I've said and repeated - I'm on the fence and will wait to see how the Goonrathi behaves in Star Citizen. But I'm not very optimistic, really. I think they will step in the salad sooner or later and it's just a question of time. Actually, I think Cpt. Underpants is quite polite/nice and behaved himself, but I doubt he'll be able to control his members once the game starts - even if he wanted to.

 

I'm not going to attack the Goonrathi in game, unless they bother me. That goes for everyone else too. I'm a PvE player and try to avoid dogfighting because it's boring and there are so many other things to do that's much more exciting.

 

I think a game like Star Citizen is going to be a lot more fun when you have friends to work with. Co-operation is in the game's DNA. I mean, not only a few friends you know that you fly with in your ship, but friends in other places and organizations. So I really don't understand why the goons will want to steer towards conflict with everyone else. To me it seems like a contra-productive idea that will only backfire on themselves.

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I think a game like Star Citizen is going to be a lot more fun when you have friends to work with. Co-operation is in the game's DNA. I mean, not only a few friends you know that you fly with in your ship, but friends in other places and organizations. So I really don't understand why the goons will want to steer towards conflict with everyone else. To me it seems like a contra-productive idea that will only backfire on themselves.

 

Agreed. Thats the core of what many of us believe will be the fun part of this game. Dont forget that works both ways though, there will be people with ideas sympathetic to the "burn them all kill their fun" mechanics.

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@Viking, those first two I have never seen before. Even so, using a stylised eagle with no easily recognisable reference to German history doesn't prove your point. I had no idea it was the top half of a Nazi logo and I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who would unprompted. I would also like to highlight that if your goal was to call out offensive behavour, you've done far worse by posting those images here than I have ever done. You've jumped the shark again. You could have linked to them, you could have PMed them to me. But you didn't. I hope you don't offend anyone by doing that.

 

Agents of S.P.E.R.G is my creation. It was made in consultion with one of my best friends who has the condition formerly known as Aspergers syndrome. He said that within the culture of those who have it, they refer to the word sperg as an adjective, not a noun. It is not considered a pejorative. It is a description of people who are overly attentive to otherwise unimportant details. He took no offense, nobody who I know who has aspergers has taken offense. Taking offense on behalf of someone else who can perfectly well defend themselves is just you grasping at ways to bismirch us.

 

While talking about my creations, here are all the themes I've designed for Goonrathi so far.

 

yWvYXL2.png

 

Do any of these offend you?

 

The other nazi and antisemetic imagry (which are from 2003) are simply from Somthing Awful, a community of over 190,000 people. When you have a group that large, you do get some who like to offend. Goonrathi isn't Something Awful. It's just where we come from. It is like saying all Americans are loud and obnoxious. That isn't true, but a loud obnoxious minority of Americans are.

 

As far as the lampooning of Valinor, that was all settled long ago. Lorien and I get along swimmingly. Derek is involved with the diplomacy project we've been working on.

 

We're not perfect. Not even close. Some of our members will do things which genuinly offend others. What do I say to that? Since when does 'sticks and stones' no longer apply? What happens when you are offended? You are offended, you don't catch leprocy. I'm offended by all sorts but I don't let it get to me because I have a thick skin and am an adult. As an adult I know that dealing with some people requires tollerance and maturity. I also know that fart jokes can be funny as hell... in the right company.

 

Really, you are left with nothing Viking. You're offended on behalf of those with Aspergers who are unlikely to even be offended. You point to the work of one member (Gondor) as if that is some official statement that we are awash with Nazi-based propaganda. You try to guilt-by-association us from the actions of other members of Something Awful. This is a forum about a computer game, not the United Nations. To use a phrase from earlier, you are being overly attentive to otherwise unimportant details.

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What I think will happen is that whatever Goons come into the PU will be changed towards the non-anarchic side of the fence - even if they be Pirates. 

 

Why? Because I believe CIG is going to establish a gameplay system that does not reward those who want to screw with someone else's fun just for the hell of it. If there's a legitimate economic or gameplay (more than just for a few guys LULZ) point to an action, I am sure most players will be okay with it - as long as they are having fun. Yes, there will be those who have no sense of humor or are unwilling to look outside their sad little skinner box. I believe them to be few. It will all be in the way the actions are executed.

 

Naive? Maybe. CR and CIG are giving us something different than other games, despite any similarities. EVE got the way it was because the Players really were the whole population in EVE, Police notwithstanding.

 

Captain Undies is behaving and responding as I expect him to - he is in Character (nothing wrong with that) and he lets us know, if you read carefully, when he is not. I'm not letting my knickers get into a twist - right now I have no reason to let them.

 

Cheers

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Folks, please remember to remain civil and not create drama. While this is the SCB forums, we expect our guests, as well as Imperium members to be civil and not create drama. Please refrain from making generalized inflammatory statements about different groups and keep the conversation on topic.

 

That having been said, co-opting historical imagery has been a part of gaming from the very beginning, all orgs do it, and it is generally not problematic unless people choose to make it so. ;)

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So in an attempt to get out of the somewhat accusatory atmosphere, here's something I'd like to know;

 

In EvE, goons have gotten a lot of hatred because they attack "careabears" in high security space. Circumventing game mechanics that protect players in high security space to attack players who don't want to participate in pvp and then mock and troll anyone who is upset over getting murdered by goons for "lulz".

Those attacked claim abuse, goons call victims all sorts of things for having gotten ganked. EvE devs take hands off approach to the sandbox. We all agree goons are evil victim blamers and all round terrible people, but that's not the core of my question. The reasons for the actions is not what I want to ask about. 

My question is, ignoring what the respective parties may think of the actions, can we expect the SC goons you currently represent or know of to participate in similar behavior? I:e attacking people outside of pvp space, who have no connection to parties in pvp space, who just want to participate in pve content and do not by their actions in any real way negatively affect goon players.  

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In EvE, goons have gotten a lot of hatred because they attack "careabears" in high security space. Circumventing game mechanics that protect players in high security space to attack players who don't want to participate in pvp and then mock and troll anyone who is upset over getting murdered by goons for "lulz".

Those attacked claim abuse, goons call victims all sorts of things for having gotten ganked. EvE devs take hands off approach to the sandbox.

 

As some of you would know, the term "carebear" is a common trope referring to people who entirely focus their gameplay on PvE and usually only activities for the benefit of themselves, not their group.

 

In EVE Online, high security space is protected by an NPC group known as CONCORD. They are invulnerable NPCs which will spawn between 6 and 19 seconds after an unauthorised act of agression in space with security of 0.5 or above. As soon as they spawn, the agressor is jammed, neuted and destroyed. This is the penatly for shooting someone else in secure space.

 

Goonswarm members, amongst others, do look for targets of oppertunity in this space. What that means is selecting a target which is likely to drop loot which exceeds the value of the ships which will be destroyed by CONCORD in the attack.

 

The most famous of these activities is Burn Jita and in the past, Hulkageddon.

 

This is not circumventing game mechanics, those mechanics are working completely as intended or CCP (EVE's developer) would have fixed the mechanics or banned people who use them in this way.

 

EVE is an open world sandbox in which almost anything the client lets you do, you can do without worry of being banned over it. People complaining about being killed in high security space deserve little sympathy because it is the nature of the game. The golden rule of EVE is never fly anything you're not prepared to lose. Ever. You are never completely safe.

 

Here is a good example of Goons using the mechanics as intended. In the Sivala system a freighter (very large ship for hauling bulk goods) was attacked and destroyed by 7 Brutix-class battlecruisers. As it is 0.6 security space, CONCORD took about 16 seconds to arrive and destroy the agressors. The battlecruisers were able to apply sufficient damage to destroy the freighter in less than 16 seconds.

 

Why was it attacked? Because the loss of ships was going to be about 1.5 billion ISK while the freigher was carrying around 20 billion. It ended up dropping 5 billion ISK of loot for the agressors to collect.

 

Let me be clear: The penalty for agression in high security space is the loss of your ship. Avoiding this loss is exploiting and bannable. Nobody does this because CCP are pretty harsh on that kind of thing.

 

Blaming goons for the nature of EVE is nonsensical. CCP created it and the mechanics existed well before Goons began to play the game. Goons were not the first to use the mechanics in this way, nor are the only ones to do so now.

 

 

We all agree goons are evil victim blamers and all round terrible people, but that's not the core of my question. 

 

We do? I think you'll find a lot of people in this thread alone will disagree with you on that point. Our community is over 190,000 strong and that means you get a broad mix of people from members like myself to the "evil victim blamers". Goonrathi are not Goonswarm. While we come from the Something Awful forums, we are a brand new group for Star Citizen and any attempts to paint us with the same brush as other goon groups is simply an attempt at guilt by association.

 

Were you wronged in EVE? Unlikely anyone in Goonrathi was party to it. Harassed by a goon in SWTOR? Little chance someone in Goonrathi was involved. Had your clan trial interupted in MWO by a goon? That could have been us as we have quite a large number from The Word of Lowtax group.

 

 

My question is, ignoring what the respective parties may think of the actions, can we expect the SC goons you currently represent or know of to participate in similar behavior? I:e attacking people outside of pvp space, who have no connection to parties in pvp space, who just want to participate in pve content and do not by their actions in any real way negatively affect goon players.  

 

Considering that the entire game universe of SC is supposed to be "PvP space", I think you will have to rephrase the question. Have a watch of the Town Hall sessions from January, Chris and Tony discuss at length about not preventing you from PvP (even on planets) but what shapes behaviour are the consequences. Those who repeatedly attack others will be put into instances with others of their ilk.

 

I hope that answers your question.

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I find the "Goonrathi aren't Goonswarm" comment to be pretty funny, because regardless of the game or the moniker they adopt, Goons are Goons are Goons.

 

To the average gamer the different between Goonrathi, Goonswarm, Goon Squad, Star Fleet Dental, Hordes of Goonheim, etc. etc. is minimal.

 

If it looks like a good, smells like a goon and acts like a goon ... it's a goon. 

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I find the "Goonrathi aren't Goonswarm" comment to be pretty funny, because regardless of the game or the moniker they adopt, Goons are Goons are Goons.

 

To the average gamer the different between Goonrathi, Goonswarm, Goon Squad, Star Fleet Dental, Hordes of Goonheim, etc. etc. is minimal.

 

Guilt by association is an easy trap to fall into my friend. Many have said similar things about other groups in the world and only later realised they are perpetuating a false stereotype.

 

We'll likely be the bad guys, but we are not bad guys.

 

tumblr_mqrz7oEOYc1rt1ivno5_500.gif

 

If it looks like a goon, smells like a goon and acts like a goon ... it's a goon.

 

I'd hate to even think about what a goon smells like...

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I find the "Goonrathi aren't Goonswarm" comment to be pretty funny, because regardless of the game or the moniker they adopt, Goons are Goons are Goons.

 

To the average gamer the different between Goonrathi, Goonswarm, Goon Squad, Star Fleet Dental, Hordes of Goonheim, etc. etc. is minimal.

 

If it looks like a good, smells like a goon and acts like a goon ... it's a goon. 

Captain Undies, this is a POV that will be difficult to assuage and I only have anecdotal evidence regarding the Goons et al. I submit to others that, considering NONE of us have any experience in the PU yet, any player previously identified under the Goon-label be ignored as such - at least until they prove otherwise. That's true for ANY gaming relationship - wait and see. As with any game, actual or virtual, consider this - Forewarned is forearmed. (like hold your friends close but your enemies closer - read your Sun Tzu and Lao Tzu)

 

Regarding the term "carebear" (NOT exclusive to the Goons), I submit that it actually denotes an easy target who does not want to play other people's game styles and will rage about it - feeding both the transgressors' egos and coffers. But that's just me. If someone uses the appellation "Carebear" when describing someone, I know what kind of player they are.

 

I say drop this discussion and wait for the PU.

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Regarding the term "carebear" (NOT exclusive to the Goons), I submit that it actually denotes an easy target who does not want to play other people's game styles and will rage about it - feeding both the transgressors' egos and coffers. But that's just me. If someone uses the appellation "Carebear" when describing someone, I know what kind of player they are.

 

Carebear is a derogatory term, used to make fun of (an)other player(s) and IMO should not be used in forum debates like this because it's flame bait.

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I hope that answers your question.

(By pvp area I mean areas where CIG encourages pvp, as opposed to the areas where it is heavily punished.) 

(and as for interactions with eve goons, none, spent my time exploring wormholes)

To sum up; you do intend to attack players who are no threat or competition to you, including ones trying to avoid pvp, and you feel you are not at fault and will troll those who object because CIG merely discourages as opposed to bans the practice? Is that a fair assessment?

And ancillary to that, would you say these attacks will be solely motivated by profit? I:e in the above case you would never attack for any reason but profit?

You have to understand that the simultaneous embracing of broader goon culture and insistence that goonrathi cannot be burdened with responsibility for everything an SA member has ever done or said creates broad confusion of what culture you are claiming goonrathi represents. Because it seems you celebrate as much as denounce EvE activity.

Perhaps a rundown of your own philosophy on when and why you pvp? Who is safe, who gets attacked, and why?

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Guilt by association is an easy trap to fall into my friend. Many have said similar things about other groups in the world and only later realised they are perpetuating a false stereotype.

 

We'll likely be the bad guys, but we are not bad guys.

 

tumblr_mqrz7oEOYc1rt1ivno5_500.gif

 

 

I'd hate to even think about what a goon smells like...

 

I'm guessing Mountain Dew and potato chips.

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(By pvp area I mean areas where CIG encourages pvp, as opposed to the areas where it is heavily punished.) 

 

I think those areas are going to be far bigger than most people expect...

 

“In general I think our blend of PvE to PvP is going to be about 80 to 20,” - Chris Roberts (Games™ Interview)

 

 

To sum up; you do intend to attack players who are no threat or competition to you, including ones trying to avoid pvp, and you feel you are not at fault and will troll those who object because CIG merely discourages as opposed to bans the practice? Is that a fair assessment?

 

I think I need to wear two different hats to properly answer your question. For myself, I don't see myself participating much in non-consensual PvP. My interest in this game is about relationships and organisation more than shooting other players. My biggest goal at this point is to have a museum hangar with one of every ship and variant in pristine condition, all of them earnt in game.

 

Now, to put my hat on as a Goonrathi representative. The game will be full of non-consensual PvP. As many of the members of Goonrathi are intent on playing the pirate, that means by definition they will be attacking those trying to avoid PvP, who are little or no threat or competition.

 

Having said that, I think anyone deciding 100% to do X or Y in the persistent universe lacks forsight. The game mechanics are a very long away from being finished. We don't know how it will work, we don't know how easy, hard or fun any of this will be when the game is completed. Goonrathi may end up being dominated by lawful space truckers depending on how the game mechanics work and how it is all balanced.

 

CIG's intent is for this game to have piracy and will control how much through consequences. I have faith that the frequency of piracy in more secure areas will be kept in check by CIG.

 

And ancillary to that, would you say these attacks will be solely motivated by profit? I:e in the above case you would never attack for any reason but profit?

 

Piracy is generally motivated by profit, but there are numerous other reasons for attacking another player. One such example is defence of your assets and areas in which you operate. I know that some in Imperium have proposed that your members will attack anyone entering the areas which you claim without authorisation. Do you think it reasonable we may choose to do the same?

 

One area I would like to highlight though is that I don't believe the persistent universe will have killboards, a public record of your kills and deaths. I believe that this alone highly contributes to the unprovoked aggression in EVE Online as your measure as a player is judged by your killboard stats. Without that in SC, it takes away a significant motivator.

 

You have to understand that the simultaneous embracing of broader goon culture and insistence that goonrathi cannot be burdened with responsibility for everything an SA member has ever done or said creates broad confusion of what culture you are claiming goonrathi represents. Because it seems you celebrate as much as denounce EvE activity.

 

How is it confusing that the actions of a member of a group do not necessarily represent the attitudes of an entire group?

 

I personally celebrate EVE as I am one of the few members of Goonrathi who play it, my figures indicate that only 4-5% of our members subscribe to EVE. Most of the membership think it is an awful game, and they'd be right. EVE is a terrible game. I think that the only saving factors are the social and history aspects.

 

Perhaps a rundown of your own philosophy on when and why you pvp? Who is safe, who gets attacked, and why?

 

As I said earlier, I doubt I'll participate much in non-consensual PvP, but when I do it will be for things like taking control of one of the conquerable stations.

 

The biggest factors overall for if people PvP or not are 1. Risk vs Reward and 2. Consequences.

 

Lets say that a group is moving a fleet of MISC Hull class ships into lawless space, escorted by a significant fleet. Will I PvP? Depends on if the reward (cargo in the Hull ships) weighs favourably with the risk of being destroyed by the escorts.

 

If that group was less protected and in more secure space, the consequences would also become a factor. If it would lose me standing with NPC groups I was trying to build up so I could buy a restricted Lazertron-9001 PDS, then I'd factor that in. If I'd be unable to even enter secure space without being shot by UEE ships after the attack, that would also factor into my decision.

 

Really, I think much of the stress about our group is not actually about our group, but that CIG will set the consequences too low and allow pirates to run rampant. I don't believe that is the case. I have faith in CIG, do you?

 

Here is today's cat tax:

 

eSKOUxY.png

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[...] will be attacking those trying to avoid PvP, who are little or no threat or competition.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how some PvP-ers see other types of players. Just because someone chooses not to PvP it doesn't mean they're "little or no threat". You'd be in for a surprice. It reminds me of the schoolyard bully who thinks he's the strongest and toughest kid in school, until the day he tries to bully someone who is uninterested in such primitive peacock behavior and suddenly finds himself on the ground with a tooth missing without knowing what hit him.

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It never ceases to amaze me how some PvP-ers see other types of players. Just because someone chooses not to PvP it doesn't mean they're "little or no threat". You'd be in for a surprice. It reminds me of the schoolyard bully who thinks he's the strongest and toughest kid in school, until the day he tries to bully someone who is uninterested in such primitive peacock behavior and suddenly finds himself on the ground with a tooth missing without knowing what hit him.

 

That happens 1/100 times though, the other 99 the bully gets to, well, bully someone. That 1% chance of surprise escalation is also something we (PvP'ers) live for

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