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Chris Roberts comment on Rental Equipment Credits (REC)


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My take on the whole thing:

 

A lot of whiners want access to backer perks they didn't pledge for, and are pissed they're actually going to have to "work" for it.

 

I'd actually love to see a correlation between the people vocally bitching about REC and the number of bug reports they filed. I'm willing to bet it's pretty close to "very vocal" and "zero".

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I don't disagree with the REC.  I think it's a good incentive to get people into Arena Commander and doing some PvP.  It's a good idea.  However, this comment kinda annoys me:

 

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/232661

croberts68

Christopher Roberts
croberts68 CreatorBacker
Posted: -
which supports the ongoing development and running costs of the game (and yes 300+ people, petabytes of data and dozens of servers are not free). 

 

We as backers are taking all the risk.  This game isn't funded by loans, or the game company's previous profits, it's funded by us.  Yes, all those things aren't free.  Because we've paid for them.  Backers will continue to pay for them.  And although this may be the BDSSE, when the product is finished, although we will be getting a fantastic game, we will not be getting dividends from the profits.  I hope Chris isn't losing site of that.

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It'll be interesting to see as the REC system gets implemented what it will mean for the FPS module.

FPS module items fueled some of the rage of peoples when CIG put in the "Combustion Pistol" in VD for 10k credits something which was clearly a mistake when other CIG sources were quoted on FPS weapon costs of ~2k credits instead and when that price was more expensive than a 60mm mass driver ship cannon.

 

Of course as everybody with common sense could see and also CR stated that is all WIP so everything will change

 

Sometimes though I question the common sense of CIG employees who could very easily avoid. BUT explanations are easy:

1. For every f0ck0p which gets to us 9 others have already been avoided

2. Only a tiny number of CIG employees actually have the project overview care for stuff like that, the individual one only caring about finishing his task then sometimes content goes through without the needed fiddling it into the 'big picture' which will then happen way later in development when everything is being polished.

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Update/response from CR

 

 
   
 
 
Posted:  6:15PM
 
 
 
One last post before I get sucked down the rabbit hole that is forum debates :-)

I just want to point out that Arena Commander (and the upcoming FPS module) is a test bed. We use it to test, balance, and stress test functionality that will be in Star Citizen and Squadron 42. Along the way we decided it would be cool / useful to have it be a game within a game so players could learn and train without having to risk their hard earned ship and weapons in the PU. Until SC is finished, AC is very much a work in progress that is more a test bed than final, polished game. 

Yes we have added game like functionality; leader boards, different game modes the proposed REC system but its really all for test reasons. By "gamefying" our test bed we hopefully make it fun for people to spend time in it which helps us make SC better in the long run. Part of what I think is the revolutionary aspect of how we are developing SC is that we try to make following and participating in the development of the game fun for everyone in the community that wants to participate. 

Where it becomes frustrating is when people start treating AC like a finished game and making assumptions on how SC will turn out based on a very much work in progress (and changing) AC, which only affords a small window into what Star Citizen and Squadron 42 will be like.

REC is something that takes extra work to implement and wasn't in our original development plans but it is something that we think is definitely worth doing. Only this past week I reinforced to the Area Commander team that "AC Bucks" (REC) was not something we could push back and re-prioritized other tasks to make this possible for AC v1.1.

So yes, I got a little exasperated when after making a requested community feature a priority to get accused of turning SC into a "freemium" game with all sorts of "grind". The point of REC isn't to decide on the game economics or prices for weapons, or turn SC into some sort of the Korean MMO grind fest, its purely to allow a route for players to earn things by playing so they aren't forced to pledge for them but this is entirely optional. Just like no one needs to do anything more than pledge for the most basic ship, no one needs to spend a minute of their time in AC. If you do then we are grateful to have your participation and you'll be making a better game. 

REC allows us to give an incentive for certain parts of the game to get tested. Right now testing different player ships against other player ships is more important for the ongoing balance of the game, which is why REC is focused on the PvP side of AC. We recognize that people don't want to be put into the current completely open bear pit that is ranked AC games, so we're also working on the ability to have brackets to match players of similar ships and / or skill in games and also allow people to opt out of the public leader boards. This will be after v1.1 though. 

There is nothing to stop us from deciding that we need some more focus on PvE - perhaps a mining scenario we want to test out and so we reward players with REC if they mine a certain amount or open up REC for Vanduul swarm - although I do believe you need to segregate progression on multiplayer from single player or else you'll just end up with Super Hornet vs Super Hornet in AC multiplayer!

So think of REC as a tool to allow us to encourage a larger player base to focus on areas of gameplay we would like to get a larger sample / bigger stress test on. Its also something that we can give out and not impact the PU (unlike UEC) and there is still nothing stopping us from making a certain ship or weapon free or greatly reduced in REC for a limited period in order to get people to test an area we feel we need more data on.

I hope this helps in understanding our intentions with REC.

 

Personally, I don't think I can make judgement until we see the system go live and test it for ourselves.  The numbers will also get adjusted.  Overall, I think it is a good idea since many of us did not purchase any weapon from VD due to its costs.  I do not pvp much in AC so I will be earning very little REC.  Does that bother me?  Not really.  Although AC is important tool for CIG, I am waiting for S42 and PU.  AC is just a stepping stone so although important, not interested as much.  This can change when 2.0 or other aspect of game goes in to AC.

@VoA Can you update OP :) ?

And does anyone have link to a poll where I can vote that I want REC?

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rsi forums are bad.. enter at own risk...

 

wel i dont play much ac attall, but i dont rly see a problem in more stuff to test with, cn understand ppl that bought storestuff to testwith are abit noyed as ya can not melt it

 

what they do while testing doesnt matter much, aslong its not linked to the final game (the assets) or everyone will have 100 superhornets en delta's at start

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yeah, I've been avoiding the RSI forums since shortly after the first scream threads opened about the REC.

 

I've been avoiding the RSI forums in general since summer 2013. Too much noise, rude kids with loud voices, and un-intelligent posts.

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I tried to find an answer, but what is it that the people upsets about the REC?

 

One problem seems to be the (vaguely) described renting time, but is there something more?

 

I got the feeling that people wanted to own the item once they "bought" it with REC. I did see a chart with the initial rent price and renew price broken down for many of the ships and it did seem a bit high to me for one weeks time so that might also have something to do with all the fuss. 

 

The table with the breakdown is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2vzrvk/a_look_at_unlock_times_for_arena_commander_ships/

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I tried to find an answer, but what is it that the people upsets about the REC?

 

One problem seems to be the (vaguely) described renting time, but is there something more?

there were a thousand variations of that

 

if you want an explanation from two of the more sensible guys:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2w4qoh/we_are_not_haters_we_believe_in_arena_commander/

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2w7kkb/there_is_a_story_posted_on_the_official_forums/

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CR just can't win with the RSI community.

 

When the VDS was updated with the Combustion Pistol and then the shield generators, people bitched that they were overpriced and accused CIG of trying to milk backers for more money. I tend to agree with that, because 10,000 UECs for a pistol is ridiculous, considering that some laser cannons cost only 4,000 UECs. And the two types of shield gens are terrible. I think CIG deserved the flak they received because of those incidents. And after the shield gen debacle, Ben Lesnick announced that CIG was introducing changes to the VDS and Arena Commander currency would be added soon, seemingly as an answer to the VDS controversy.

 

Then last Friday, CIG announced REC, which will enable players to earn AC currency to rent ships, weapons, and other equipment, similar to the VDS, except without having to spend real money. I thought this was great news. :)

 

I didn't expect the RSI community backlash about REC -- especially since it was the polar opposite of the outrage about the VDS money-grubbing from a few weeks ago. I don't understand how some people think it's "unfair" that players competing in AC multiplayer matches can earn RECs and rent ships and equipment for AC. Because AC is just a simulation. It's a video game inside a video game. ;) Players can earn RECs in AC MP and use them to test different ships and weapons, but they don't get to keep those ships and use them in the PU. So I don't understand why RECs are "unfair".  :rolleyes:

 

I think that the people outraged by this because don't understand how the REC system works... OR they're the kind of assholes who think that being inclusive of other people somehow negatively affects them.

 

It reminds me of the South Park episode "Red Sleigh Down" wherein Cartman wants a Haibo robot dog, and at the end of the episode Santa gives him and the other boys Haibo dogs, and Cartman is pissed off because he only wanted the robot dog to make his friends jealous, so them all having the same toy spoils it for him.

 

The REC backlash seems to be a bunch of loud entitled assholes who spent money on pledge ships and weapons are pissed off that CIG is introduced a new system that allows "the poors" to have access to those same ships and weapons by working for them. How dare they!  :P

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CR just can't win with the RSI community.

 

When the VDS was updated with the Combustion Pistol and then the shield generators, people bitched that they were overpriced and accused CIG of trying to milk backers for more money. I tend to agree with that, because 10,000 UECs for a pistol is ridiculous, considering that some laser cannons cost only 4,000 UECs. And the two types of shield gens are terrible. I think CIG deserved the flak they received because of those incidents. And after the shield gen debacle, Ben Lesnick announced that CIG was introducing changes to the VDS and Arena Commander currency would be added soon, seemingly as an answer to the VDS controversy.

 

Then last Friday, CIG announced REC, which will enable players to earn AC currency to rent ships, weapons, and other equipment, similar to the VDS, except without having to spend real money. I thought this was great news. :)

 

I didn't expect the RSI community backlash about REC -- especially since it was the polar opposite of the outrage about the VDS money-grubbing from a few weeks ago. I don't understand how some people think it's "unfair" that players competing in AC multiplayer matches can earn RECs and rent ships and equipment for AC. Because AC is just a simulation. It's a video game inside a video game. ;) Players can earn RECs in AC MP and use them to test different ships and weapons, but they don't get to keep those ships and use them in the PU. So I don't understand why RECs are "unfair".  :rolleyes:

 

I think that the people outraged by this because don't understand how the REC system works... OR they're the kind of assholes who think that being inclusive of other people somehow negatively affects them.

 

It reminds me of the South Park episode "Red Sleigh Down" wherein Cartman wants a Haibo robot dog, and at the end of the episode Santa gives him and the other boys Haibo dogs, and Cartman is pissed off because he only wanted the robot dog to make his friends jealous, so them all having the same toy spoils it for him.

 

The REC backlash seems to be a bunch of loud entitled assholes who spent money on pledge ships and weapons are pissed off that CIG is introduced a new system that allows "the poors" to have access to those same ships and weapons by working for them. How dare they!  :P

 

Agreed, especially the last bit.  I saw posts in the RSI threads from players complaining that CIG had totally shit on them for adding a "grind" to AC after they'd spent $200, $300, $1000 already on the game.  To them because they'd spent x they deserved to skip the work.  

 

There are truly a lot of bad game companies, game publishers, and devs out there who couldn't bring themselves to share and communicate with a community of players for love or money.  Unfortunately it is bullshit like the REC kerfuffle which makes the good ones gunshy to try and serves to vindicate the position of the bad ones.  The VD store has been problematic in my eyes from the beginning, especially the inability to melt purchased items at this early stage in development/balancing and without the REC system being in place, but it is largely an honest mistake/misstep.  The REC system could have been presented in a clearer fashion(not because it was particularly unclear, but because there are plenty of people who can't parse information for shit and plenty more who refuse to do so for perverse enjoyment), but any rational person should be able to see it is a good faith effort to provide a service the community claimed to want.  No system is perfect, improvements can always be made, but these people aren't even giving them credit for a solid rough draft before they start screaming.  

 

/rant  Not surprised, honestly, been around people far too long for that, but it is February in Wisconsin and if I can't get mad about people being wrong on the internet I just might freeze to death.

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@CyberianK

 

So it's mostly about the "grind" aspect. Backed by the "false" assumption that, the renting time would count continuously.

 

I expected some complains, after reading the article, but not about something like this. Actually what @Reavern wrote, it seems to me the exact opposite happened. I thought people would keep complaining about the "p2w", because I can spend money and have a permanent weapon that I can even use in the PU.

 

 

Anyway everything related to VD has potential for complains. The intention was good, but it turned out bad and they keep making mistakes.

 

 

  No system is perfect, improvements can always be made, but these people aren't even giving them credit for a solid rough draft before they start screaming.  

The loud minority. A downside of having such a large community.

I know they appreciate feedback, but they also know that not every feedback is good. The Freelancer for example, it was the only ship we were able to vote for on a concept. Now we're only getting approved concepts and yet people say this and that is wrong and should be improved/fixed.

The FPS module, of course not finished, but playable, is undergoing further development time and I guess they are doing this to polish it further. Otherwise more complains because something isn't working.

Probably the PTU also plays a role in that. I mean, we can test patches before they are released for us to test. 

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The loud minority. A downside of having such a large community.

I know they appreciate feedback, but they also know that not every feedback is good. 

 

The loud minority is mostly just ignored. It's how it should be, and always is. If the loud minority knew that they'd be less loud and more constructive.

 

When I was a politician 20 years ago I remember we ignored the people with torches and banners who screamed for attention, while we read and discussed letters we got from concerned citizens. It was often the same issues but the presentation was very different, and important. The poor people who organized protest marches and used los of time to make banners and buy torches and stuff actually believed they were heard ... If they'd knew how much they were ignored they'd not bother to waste their time going in protest marches.

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It's generally pretty shitty over on RSI. But that discussion is bad enough that I posted an apology and a note of gratitude for the silent majority. What a joke. Thankfully we're made of better stuff here.

I agree, it's sad that people cries for a change they want. Then turn around and spit in your face, people need to grow up on the RSI forums.

 

I should repost this a give them something to cry about.

 

8decb01c-5ff2-4846-8ad4-9da4e331e288_zps

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It would be interesting is we could get something similar into 10FTC. Drum given your penchant for getting questions answered, how about it?

"Chris, how do you deal with people who beg and beg for everything, and then spit in your face when it's not delivered to their exact specifications?"

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It would be interesting is we could get something similar into 10FTC. Drum given your penchant for getting questions answered, how about it?

"Chris, how do you deal with people who beg and beg for everything, and then spit in your face when it's delivered to their exact specifications?"

I'm down for it lol, I think CR should just turn SC off for one week and say, "How does it feel now?".

 

On a real note, this is how CR deals with all of this at the end of the day.

 

31956e9f-0ae6-4310-877a-a68747b432a4_zps

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I often wonder how much actual time in AC or money in VDS purchases many of the people now bitching about REC actually have. Given the tiny percentage of the community that actually consistently play AC, the numbers don't favor the people actually having a leg to stand on when it comes to their arguments, and they generally are some of the same people who like to start crap anytime there is a change. It also makes me wonder about their motives as well; could they actually be in the employ of some of the big game companies that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo that SC has been chipping away at for the last several years? We know that large companies from the tobacco industry to the entertainment industry will stop at nothing when their profits are threatened, including trying to sue governments who take actions against them. I think it is a real possibility that a lot of these trolls could be bloggers or others who have some kind of arrangment with big companies like EA and Ubisoft and are employed to try to create negative backlashes that then fill the "game news sites". It will be interesting to see if some of these "news sites" (blogs really) latch onto this over the next couple of months and begin publishing floods of negative press.

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I think it is a real possibility that a lot of these trolls could be bloggers or others who have some kind of arrangment with big companies like EA and Ubisoft and are employed to try to create negative backlashes that then fill the "game news sites".

 

Indeed, my thoughts exactly. Also the comment sections on online news sites seems to be infested with EA employees in disguise who have only negative things to say about Star Citizen. They're following the strategy that if you tell a lie enough times, and often enough, people will start to think there is a core of truth to  it.

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Indeed, my thoughts exactly. Also the comment sections on online news sites seems to be infested with EA employees in disguise who have only negative things to say about Star Citizen. They're following the strategy that if you tell a lie enough times, and often enough, people will start to think there is a core of truth to  it.

Yes, and that's the sad truth. New people that join SC and have no clue what's going on, all they see is a action game that is new and "My friend is joining from Call of Duty/ HALO" and I'm going to join with him. Just because they want it now, they get fed all the awesome dumb lies. It's sad when the young age group sees a game they want, they don't read nor ask what's the history behind this development, why am I spending my money to back this game, who's CR?.

 

Young generation = I want it now, my way or the highway, my friends played it and they said it was dumb.

 

Pffttt..........once again people, the dam game is nothing more than a dam testing bed. It's not a fully finish product with all the shiny toys and pew pews. If you don't like

INgtu0o.gifTOUGH TIM TAMS!
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