Flying Fortress The Aegis Retaliator

[Danakar Endeel]

22 minutes ago, Mitsuragi said:

I am having a hard time deciding if I should keep my Retalitor Bomber or CCU it to a Vanguard Harbinger. My biggest concern is that I am more of a lone wolf and you cannot operate the Retaliator's turrets without a crew. Does anyone have any advice on what might be more useful?

Harbinger would have less (and smaller) torpedoes compared to the Retaliator but you can operate the ship effectively with just 2 people. Or just 1 person if CIG will allow you to slave the turret or even replace it with an aftermarket Flashfire Specialty Mount like the one CIG made for the Cutlass (which could allow for up to a S5 fixed gun up there as the hardpoint translates to a S6).

[Reavern]

19 hours ago, Mitsuragi said:

I am having a hard time deciding if I should keep my Retalitor Bomber or CCU it to a Vanguard Harbinger. My biggest concern is that I am more of a lone wolf and you cannot operate the Retaliator's turrets without a crew. Does anyone have any advice on what might be more useful?

It seems you already understand the pros and cons of the two bombers.

The Tali will either need gunners to operate its turrets or a fighter escort to protect it from enemy interceptors. If you try to solo a Tali, the pilot cannot operate any of the gun turrets, so you can't defend yourself -- unless you sacrifice torpedo capacity to equip anti-fighter missiles. Whereas if you solo a Harbinger, the pilot can operate the quad nose guns, gatling gun, and missiles, and the bomber should be okay in a dogfight. So if you prefer to solo, the Harbinger is the better choice of bomber for you.

The Tali will be better suited for "fleet actions" wherein it will be used to attack big, slow-moving targets, like an enemy cap ship or space installation. In a fleet action, there should be plenty of players available to crew the Tali and operate its turrets. So if you want to participate in fleet actions, the Tali is well suited for that. (The Harbinger is too.)

Something to consider regarding the Tali is that CIG has been redesigning and updating most of the early ships. If I recall correctly, the Tali was hangar ready and flyable around the same time as the Constellation, and the Constellation has been redesigned and updated, and all its varient models are undergoing updates. It's possible the Tali will be redesigned and updated sometime in 2017. If and when that happens, CIG might redesign the Tali's torpedo bays and increase its torpedo capacity. It never made sense to me why the front torpedo bay held 4 torpedoes and the aft torpedo bay held 2. The front torpedo bay's rotary torpedo holder seems wasted by only holding a single torpedo. And it seems inefficient that the Tali can launch up to 4 torpedoes for its first volley, but only 2 for its second, then it's done. The design doesn't seem logical to me.

If CIG does redesign the Tali, I think they'll address that flaw. So the Tali might end up carrying a lot more torpedoes than the Harbinger. And if it does, the price will probably increase, so it might be premature to CCU to a Harbinger. If that happens, it would be smarter to sell your Retaliator for a tidy profit, buy a less expensive ship (ideally a concept ship with LTI), then CCU that to the Harbinger.

[VoA]

Torpedo Target Practice ... 

http://i.imgur.com/eK094sv.mp4

[VoA]

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15921-Q-A-Aegis-Eclipse

• The Retaliator is the dedicated long range bomber, able to carry the most ordnance, the most men and the most weaponry to defend itself via its turrets. It can sustain itself and its crew much deeper in the verse and is ideal for striking targets a long way away. This is a good opportunity to mention that we are well aware of many in the community’s issues with the Retaliator (capacity, turret behavior, layouts, etc) and whilst we can’t commit to changes presently in the short term, it is on our radar and we’ll be reviewing at some point in the future.

[Danakar Endeel]

6 hours ago, VoA said:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15921-Q-A-Aegis-Eclipse

• The Retaliator is the dedicated long range bomber, able to carry the most ordnance, the most men and the most weaponry to defend itself via its turrets. It can sustain itself and its crew much deeper in the verse and is ideal for striking targets a long way away. This is a good opportunity to mention that we are well aware of many in the community’s issues with the Retaliator (capacity, turret behavior, layouts, etc) and whilst we can’t commit to changes presently in the short term, it is on our radar and we’ll be reviewing at some point in the future.

Good to hear that they are still aware of the Retaliator's many issues (or claim to be aware at any rate).

[JakeStoanes]

At this point i'm basically holding out on my Retaliator strictly because I don't have the money to upgrade to a Polaris. Maybe if I see them come up with some decent dedication to actually make the Retaliator what it is meant to be, then i'll hold on to it longer... but as much as I love how the ship looks, and what it stands for.. I just haven't seen any effort by the developers to make it what it is supposed to be. Not yet anyway, but like I said, I still hold on to hope

[VoA]

Wow.... over a year since people have posted about the Retaliator.   Ever since it came out I have had a love / hate relationship with it.   Love the items listed below.... but hate the corridors and inefficient layout....

Love the:

• Having 6 Torpedoes
• Modular Design
• Beds / Long range
• Good shields
• Good amount of turrets even though they are not that strong
• Using Blades to have AI operate the turrets (or can use NPCs or PCs)
• Can repair pr swap / fix components in battle (Gladiator and Eclipse you can't)

------------------------------------------------------

But I also love the Eclipse........ with its stealth and design..... but it only has 3 torpedoes (and is a sitting duck once spotted) ----- however I can't justify a CCU to it based on the items above from the Tali

===========================

Overall my favorite Bomber is still the Harbinger and it will be great vs Fighters and larger ships...... thus my Tali is still on the chopping block (just not for another Bomber for like the Eclipse).    Rough agonizing contemplation.   Is there something I am missing with this theory-crafting?

[GRIZZ]

Its a victim of early design.  Pilot has no guns and turrets can't hit things making it pretty useless in the PU other than looking impressive.  

Once torpedoes are balanced and targets, I mean capital ships, are in game it will have a resurgence in interest in fleet battles.  I expect the redesign to give it more bombs on board and with the addition of AI controlled PDC's (not NPC controlled) then all the Expanse fans will come running for their new Roci'.

All the BMM fans should feel blessed their ship is at the back of the schedule.

[Devil Khan]

I prefer the Tali, over the eclipse and more so over the Harbinger. The Gladiator has better firepower (smaller torps,but more off them), hasn't the shields. 

However, Each off the 4 roles are quite different styles.

Eclipse - stealth strike

Tali - Security or general hitting big to small ships

Gladiator - Operator in packs, can take on fighters as well

Harbinger - overpriced... considering the Tali has more off well everything.    

@GRIZZ AI turrets are still "flawed" and well still is the AI in your ship.

[Masokas]

I dunno... Besides the retaliator looking super badass, I can totally see some fun long range and long duration bombing missions into deep enemy territory to raid cargo ships and supply lines. I think that sounds like a friggen blast, and could be devastatingly effective in a campaign verses another powerful org/fleet. Work with a long range strike group, scout out some big targets, jump in, tie up the escorts move in with the Tali and turn some Hull's and starfarers into brief miniature suns, jump away laughing and tallying up the amount of arms, fuel and credits you guys just watched evaporate into vaccum!

The harbinger has the range to do something similar, but it can't carry the amount of ordinance/do the same kind of damage that a Tali could inflict before having to return to rearm. The eclipse won't have the range (though I will say that I like the potential for stealth bomber gameplay A LOT!) I just think the Tali occupies a very specific niche that other bombers won't be able to fill in quite the same way. I suppose it really comes down to whether or not you WANT to play in that niche, yeah?

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[VoA]

1 hour ago, GRIZZ said:

Pilot has no guns and turrets can't hit things making it pretty useless in the PU other than looking impressive.  

Compare it to the Eclipse in this regard.... sure the Tali can't fire its turrets with a solo pilot yet (yes they will be able to with Blades on the Turrets - per CIG)...... and the Eclipse only has two little guns with not much defense at all........ but the Tali has 6 Torpedoes..... Eclipse only has 3.

56 minutes ago, Devil Khan said:

I prefer the Tali, over the eclipse and more so over the Harbinger. The Gladiator has better firepower (smaller torps,but more off them), hasn't the shields. 

However, Each off the 4 roles are quite different styles.

Eclipse - stealth strike

Tali - Security or general hitting big to small ships

Gladiator - Operator in packs, can take on fighters as well

Harbinger - overpriced... considering the Tali has more off well everything.    

@GRIZZ AI turrets are still "flawed" and well still is the AI in your ship.

• I still see a use for the Tali (and I have the Drop Ship module for it that I can un-melt) - but still prefer the Harbinger per below....
• Eclipse stealth will be more effective vs smaller ships (that won't have good scanners) - but Captial ships will tend to have great scanners and even a dedicated person or NPC just focusing on scans.   Eclipse - while not long range can be a carrier bomber (see Gladiator below)
• Tali's biggest strength is its ability to hold fend fighters (with turrets) - not necessarily kill them - and have the shields to do a few bombing runs before leaving (the Eclipse can't really fend off fighters once found) - then the Tali has 6 torpedoes vs the Eclipse 3.
• Gladiator - Can fend off fighters and is a great carrier bomber - much easier to land it on the Idris than the Eclipse (even with wings folded) - and will probably be faster to reload.
• The Harbinger is probably the best Bomber vs other Fighters (with the Gladiator being next).   The Harbinger (like the Hurricane) can sustain damage to ships beyond the use of its Torpedoes.... ++ you can BUK it to a Sentinel +++ you have more armor than the standard Vanguard frame which can already limp back to base with more damage than most ships can.   Overall I think the Harbinger has many more use cases than any of the bombers mentioned above.... and would likely be favored to win a 1v1 fight even vs a Tali.   Curious why you say the Harbinger is overpriced with it being about the same price as a Tali and Eclipse?
• If you really need to bring more "Bomber" firepower then you bring your Polaris or Javelin  = both are also Bombers (even though most people forget this point).

57 minutes ago, Masokas said:

I dunno... Besides the retaliator looking super badass, I can totally see some fun long range and long duration bombing missions into deep enemy territory to raid cargo ships and supply lines.

Being Long Range Bombers is a big advantage for both the Retaltiator and Harbinger - something many forget.

 

59 minutes ago, Masokas said:

The harbinger has the range to do something similar, but it can't carry the amount of ordinance/do the same kind of damage that a Tali could inflict before having to return to rearm. 

Agreed that the Harbinger can't pack as big of a punch as the Tali (thus they actually compliment each other) - but the Harbinger is designed to be a first strike ship (and can take damage - to survive and come back) + can pack more sustained damage than a Tali (or any other medium to small bombers).   Again - Harbinger has the most "use cases" - including the BUKs - but the Tali also modular.

1 hour ago, Masokas said:

The eclipse won't have the range (though I will say that I like the potential for stealth bomber gameplay A LOT!) I just think the Tali occupies a very specific niche that other bombers won't be able to fill in quite the same way. I suppose it really comes down to whether or not you WANT to play in that niche, yeah?

Agreed - but also fills multi-player game play which gives advantages to in-fight repairs (swapping or fixing components) +++ Harbinger can do this as well.   The Gladiator by contrast is a multi-player ship but not option to fix components in a fight.

[Masokas]

Agreed that the Harbinger can't pack as big of a punch as the Tali (thus they actually compliment each other) - but the Harbinger is designed to be a first strike ship (and can take damage - to survive and come back) + can pack more sustained damage than a Tali (or any other medium to small bombers).   Again - Harbinger has the most "use cases" - including the BUKs - but the Tali also modular.

I suppose, now that I think of it, you could run a Harbinger hunter pack and have similar results to a Tali strike group with fewer ships involved... The harbingers having less of a need for escorts. I should also confess that I am basing this all on the assumption that something like a Hull C/D/Starfarer takes one to two torpedoes to kill... If this is not actually the case then squad makeup would have to change accordingly.

The idea, though, would be to go into an operation with enough torpedoes to down at least 3 or 4 large, high-strategic value targets before returning to base. Potentially over multiple play sessions, if thats how long it takes to locate the ideal hit, and that's why I figured the Tali might be best for that kind of long duration mission. But again, I suppose if you flew a group of 3+ harbingers, you might be able to pull off the same thing. You'd probably need Vanguards for escorts for your Tali, anyways... Why not just make them harbingers and remove the Tali entirely, right?

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[VoA]

13 minutes ago, Masokas said:

Why not just make them harbingers and remove the Tali entirely, right?

 

I wouldn't go that far (and why I have both the Harbinger and Tali still).   The Tali can put out a faster crippling punch with 6 large torpedoes.   The Harbinger's can't do that - and instead favor sustained damage with its Rail Gun and rocket Launchers + nose guns - so having that first punch can be important in a battle.   I just think that Harbingers have more Use cases than the Tali (especially with BUKs - which add more options than the Tali's modules)

[Masokas]

Actually... Wait... What size torpedoes does a harbinger carry? I can't seem to find it on the ships page...

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[Devil Khan]

3x Size 5 same size as the gladiator who carries 4.

[VoA]

5 minutes ago, Devil Khan said:

3x Size 5 same size as the gladiator who carries 4.

This is likely to change because it was done prior to the current item 2.0 and the concept art for the harbinger shows much larger Torpedoes than what the Gladiator carries but they are smaller than the size nines that the eclipse and tali carries

[Jergon Heckory]

I may regret it in the future, but I finally caved and melted my Tali.

While I loved the ship since first concept reveal, I didnt like the interior design we ended up with. Also, I never understood why they kept the turret equipped with undersized weapons.

[Masokas]

This is likely to change because it was done prior to the current item 2.0 and the concept art for the harbinger shows much larger Torpedoes than what the Gladiator carries but they are smaller than the size nines that the eclipse and tali carries

Ah, ok... So there still might be an argument for a Tali rapid deep-strike group if your targets were like hull C sized or larger. Bigger boom=less time sticking around to get the job done.

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[VoA]

45 minutes ago, Jergon Heckory said:

I may regret it in the future, but I finally caved and melted my Tali.

While I loved the ship since first concept reveal, I didnt like the interior design we ended up with. Also, I never understood why they kept the turret equipped with undersized weapons.

The interior is also why I don't like my Tali (don't like the corridors) but I still have it.  As for the turrets being undersized - it is really a play-balance thing (since it is a bomber and fighters are suppose to be able to take it out - vs the Harbinger being more of a Hybrid)

[Reavern]

The Retaliator has sorta fallen off the radar, but it will certainly get some re-design love at some point. The reason the Tali has kinda been forgotten is that there's no urgent need for a heavy bomber in AC or the PU, manned turrets haven't been fixed yet, and it's not easy to get 6 players together in the PU to fully crew a Retaliator. Whereas smaller bombers, like the Eclipse and Harbinger, are much easier to make flight-ready.

However, it's just a matter of time before the Retaliator is reworked, like all of the early ships have been. To be fair, Caterpillar and Starfarer owners had to wait a long time before CIG made them flight-ready, and Banu Merchantman owners are still waiting. There's also very little demand for a Retaliator rework, which is probably why it's not even on the Roadmap -- not even as something CIG is even considering doing in 2019.

Regardless, I sincerely hope that the Retaliator is re-designed at some point. I believe the top priority should be re-designing the interior because the Tali's interior layout is arguably the worst in Star Citizen. I don't need to beat a dead horse; everyone knows what the problems are. The question is: Can CIG fix the Retaliator's interior without rendering the existing modules obsolete?

Because I think most people agree that they hate the way the main corridor snakes around the forward bomb bay on the port side, and starboard side is blocked. People would prefer if the main corridor ran down the centreline of the ship, like in virtually every other ship. But the main corridor can't cut through the forward bomb bay, because it would make it impossible to move fore to aft and vice-versa when the ship was in space and the bomb bay doors were open (which TBF would be a very small percentage of the time, but still an issue). That's why the main corridor is asymmetrical and detours around the forward bomb bay.

The simple solution is to divide the forward bomb bay into two, port and starboard, bomb bays, which was how the Retaliator's interior was laid out in the early concept art. But if the forward bomb bay was separated into two, it would render the Habitation and Drop Ship modules unusable -- unless, instead, the forward module was expanded in size to basically fill the forward half of the fuselage. The cockpit and upper deck would remain unchanged, but the space between the cockpit and the elevator room in the middle would become a large module.

In heavy bomber configuration, the main corridor would run through the centreline of the module, with possibly bombardier and/or ordinance specialist station(s) also located there, and there'd be two sealed bomb bay compartments on the port and starboard sides.

In cargo configuration, the whole section would be a cargo hold, with doors fore and aft, and a narrow path either down the centreline or along the wall of the cargo, similar to how you can reach the Cutlass' aft door when it's fully loaded with cargo. There would also be a ladder in the elevator room to the upper deck, which should be added to re-designed Relatiator not matter what, so it's possible for the crew in the aft section to access the living quarters and escape pods.

In living configuration, it would basically be the same: doors fore and aft, with the living space occupying the whole space, and it would be easy to walk through the room.

In dropship configuration, same idea more or less: doors fore and aft, the main corridor running through it, and the seats for the marines on the sides, as well as weapon racks, armour lockers, and perhaps even enough space for a mech suit or a Dragonfly or Cue.

I believe that's the ideal solution for re-designing the Retaliator's interior.

Then you move on to secondary improvements, like doubling the Tali's torpedo capacity to 12 x S9 torpedoes, up-sizing the turrets, adding escape pods in the aft section, improving the way the VTOL thrusters work, and perhaps adding more module options. Perhaps specialty mission modules for: e-warfare, reconnaissance, mine deployment, info running, a rear dropship module for vehicles and/or mech suits, prisoner cell module for bounty hunting, or payload deployment bays for probes, sensor/comm buoys, or jump/quantum interdictors.

Regarding the Tali's turrets, I believe the forward dorsal turret should up-sized to dual S3 or S4, so it can be used defensively by a gunner or offensively by the pilot using a remote control blade. At least one of the ventral turrets should be converted to a ball turret that can extend downward from the hull -- not to the extreme of the Hammerhead's turrets -- far enough that it won't be obstructed by anything so it can cover the bomber's entire ventral hemisphere. The ventral ball turret(s) should also be up-gunned to either dual S3/S4s or quad S2/S3s. The rest of the turrets should be up-sized to dual S2s or S3s.

I know that it seems like I'm suggesting turning the Retaliator into a gunship, which could rival the A2 Hercules, but I think the Tali needs to be radically re-designed to become relevant again. The Retalatior should be re-designed to the degree that it could be justified increasing its price to $400-500 (which would still be less than an A2 Hercules). That would place it in a distinct "heavy bomber" class between the Eclipse-&-Harbinger and the Polaris-&-Hercules. I think that's entirely justifiable and would make the Retaliator relevant and popular again.

[VoA]

4 hours ago, Reavern said:

I know that it seems like I'm suggesting turning the Retaliator into a gunship, which could rival the A2 Hercules, but I think the Tali needs to be radically re-designed to become relevant again. The Retalatior should be re-designed to the degree that it could be justified increasing its price to $400-500 (which would still be less than an A2 Hercules). That would place it in a distinct "heavy bomber" class between the Eclipse-&-Harbinger and the Polaris-&-Hercules. I think that's entirely justifiable and would make the Retaliator relevant and popular again.

@ReavernGreat theory-crafting Analysis post .  As for a Gunship - I have both the Redeemer, Hammerhead and A2 (all fulfill the gunship role fine) - and since these cover this role fine - not sure if CIG needs to modify the Tali (increasing its price and modifying its turrets to fulfill this role.   I actually like the Lore history of the Bomber and the fact that we are really using an older "shell" of the original military Tali's (thus the Tali Base model) - and civilians (like us players) are just converting it to various other purposes through modularity.

As for my previous post and continued agonizing back and forth between either sticking with my Tali or CCUing it to an Eclipse (trying to say I already have too many Bombers) - my ultimate solution - was to say....... hey..... I really love all the effort CIG is putting into this game development (loved CR RTV yesterday)..... so to put me out of my misery.... I ended up with both the Tali and Eclipse (so now I have too many Bombers again - sigh - to go along with my Harbinger, Polaris and Javelin)...... now I am starting to miss my Gladiator (one of my first ships)

[VoA]

The Tali's weapon racks are working :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

+191 views

[Masokas]

Curious to see if it becomes possible to really focus on stealth components with a Tali and turn this into a long-range stealth insertion drop-ship. For that matter, I think it would be really cool in general if the Tali could end up being stealth focused in such a way that the gameplay with it became akin to that of modern day submarines. I think that'd be super fun to play!

[Danakar Endeel]

On 10/22/2018 at 11:20 PM, VoA said:

The Tali's weapon racks are working :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

+191 views

TAKE YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER!!!  😲

 

[GRIZZ]

My Retaliator spawned without doors on the compartments, allowing me to see the components are actually under those doors around the ship.  

Best one is the dual lime green shield generators.