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Esperia Prowler

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12 hours ago, Reavern said:

I think you're missing the point of the Prowler: it's a stealth boarding craft.

It's inconceivable that a ship the size of a Cutlass or Redeemer could physically dock with a larger ship without tripping all sorts of sensors and alarms. And if that boarding craft used a cutting rig to slice through the hull it would presumably noisy and bright, so even if ship's sensors didn't detect the docked ship if there were any crew members in the vicinity they could see or hear it. It wouldn't matter how many marines there were to storm the ship because the docking port or cut hole in the hull would be a bottleneck. If the defending crew knew where the boarders were going to enter the ship, a handful of crew armed with automatic weapons and grenades could repel the boarders. (Realistically, the entry port or hole could become so clogged with dead bodies that boarders couldn't get through.) CIG has also mentioned the possibility of internal ship defenses, like booby traps, automated weapons, and deployable weapons, which could all be used to repel boarders if the crew was aware that an enemy ship had docked and was attempted to board their ship.

That is why a stealth boarding craft that deploys boarders via EVA is superior.

The Prowler boarding scenario I imagine involves the Prowler stealthily approaching the target ship, a Starfarer, from the dorsal side, so even if the aft gun turrets were manned the gunners would have difficulty visually spotting the incoming ship. No matter how stealthy a ship is it's still best to approach the target from an inherent blindspot. The Prowler would probably close within 20 metres and deploy a dozen marines in EVA suits. (12 marines is a conservative estimate for the Prowler's troop transport capacity.) The marines would thrust over to the Starfarer and pass through its shields without being detected by the ship's sensors. The marines would access the Starfarer's dorsal docking port located on the underside of the nose section, which is where a ship would dock to board the ship. The marines would either hack the docking port's keypad or cut through the hatch with a handheld cutting torch/laser. The docking port on the Starfarer's nose section is an ideal entry point because it's unlikely any of the crew would be there and there are multiple internal doors to prevent decompression and noise when the hatch is opened. Alternatively, the marines could gain entry via the external door or lifts on the refueling boom platform.

Assuming that the marines succeeded in entering the Starfarer without setting off any alarms, the crew would be unaware of their presence and unprepared to defend themselves. CR mentioned in the CitizenCon demo that the crew of the ship wouldn't normally be wearing their armour suits inside the ship; they'd be in their normal clothes or uniforms and they wouldn't be armed, except maybe a sidearm. Whereas the marines would be wearing armoured EVA suits and heavily armed. And they'd probably outnumber the crew, since the Starfarer has a crew of 7. Even if a crew member happened to spot the enemy intruders enter the cargo bay, they would have virtually no chance against them. The crew-players could set off an internal alarm and/or voice-comm to alert their teammates, and the crew might scramble to equip their armour and weapons. The crew might try to defend the bridge; since there's only one door it might be challenging to breach. However, the marines could probably disable the ship's engines and/or power plant from the engineering room, rendering control of the bridge irrelevant. The marines might be able to vent the ship's atmosphere and kill any crew not wearing a space suit.

Regardless, the point is that boarding a ship via EVA and remaining undetected is probably far more effective than using the boarding craft to dock with the target ship, storming the ship, and trying to defeat the crew that is aware the marines are coming. A single grenade could kill the boarding party the instant the entered the ship.

That is why I believe the Prowler stealth boarding craft will be superior to the other boarding craft in the game. B)

Oh, I'm not missing the point or anything; I'm just skeptical. ;)

 

The Sabre was originally stated to be "built from the ground up to be a dedicated “stealth” ship" during its concept sale and Q&A yet suddenly turned into "it is quick and hidden but a truly dedicated stealth fighter would be a step beyond" afterwards. So yeah, I'd take anything CIG Marketing states about the capabilities of the Prowler during concept sale with a hefty bag of salt as they will just pull their 'Subject to Change' card immediately afterwards. :P

 

But I have no interest in a Prowler (especially not for a whopping $425); not even if it had a Romulan cloaking device. Being taxidriver for a gang of people just isn't my thing. :)

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4 hours ago, Danakar Endeel said:

Oh, I'm not missing the point or anything; I'm just skeptical. ;)

 

The Sabre was originally stated to be "built from the ground up to be a dedicated “stealth” ship" during its concept sale and Q&A yet suddenly turned into "it is quick and hidden but a truly dedicated stealth fighter would be a step beyond" afterwards. So yeah, I'd take anything CIG Marketing states about the capabilities of the Prowler during concept sale with a hefty bag of salt as they will just pull their 'Subject to Change' card immediately afterwards. :P

 

But I have no interest in a Prowler (especially not for a whopping $425); not even if it had a Romulan cloaking device. Being taxidriver for a gang of people just isn't my thing. :)

In the case of the Sabre, based on my recollection, it kinda came out of nowhere. It wasn't a Stretch Goal ship because I remember the stretch goal ship polls and the choice for a Dedicated Stealth Ship lost both years. I believe the Sabre was a Foundry 42 original, which they created because they needed a stealth fighter for Squadron 42. In space combat games like Wing Commander and Freespace, the player received a new type of ship (and weapons) every few missions. I except the same will be true for SQ42. The player will start by training in an Avenger, then fly the Gladius in combat, eventually upgrade to the F7A Hornet and probably fly the Ghost and Tracker variants for specific missions just to keep things interesting. At some point the Sabre will be introduced in the SQ42 campaign and it will be a stealth fighter.

The Sabre isn't a stealth fighter in Arena Commander or Crusader PU because A.) the detection/stealth mechanics aren't fully fleshed out yet; and B.) the Sabre is already an excellent dogfighter so adding stealth to its capabilities would make it unbalanced. I believe that CIG has nerfed the Sabre's stealth ability and made it just another light fighter, comparable to the Gladius. The probable in-game explanation for this is that Aegis isn't permitted to sell stealth fighters to civilians -- which makes sense -- so they've built two variants of the Sabre: a military variant with stealth and a civilian variant without stealth.

That's why I don't believe that CIG reneged on the Sabre's stealth abilities; I believe they were referring to the SQ42 version, whereas the AC/PU isn't a stealth fighter. It would've been better if CIG had explained that fully or simply not mentioned the Sabre's stealth ability, but it's kinda CIG's job to hype up their new ships as much as they can. A little deception in marketing is a given. (Practically every movie trailer claims the movie is "the best <genre> movie of the year!" That can't be true for every movie but no one decries the ads for deceiving people.)

 

I fully understand that the Prowler isn't for everyone -- actually, I prefer that because it will make the Prowler special and rare. I've been eagerly awaiting the Prowler for two years and it's finally here! It's exactly the type of ship I want so I can commandeer Vanduul and Pirate cap ships. As I described, infiltrating a cap ship undetected and taking out the crew without damaging the ship is far better than attempting a direct assault, so the Prowler is the ideal boarding craft IMO. Sure, $425 is higher than I expected -- I'd certainly prefer if it was $300 or less -- but it might be justified. It would be great if there's a cash discount and/or presale for Subscribers. We'll find out this Friday.

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6 hours ago, Danakar Endeel said:

Oh, I'm not missing the point or anything; I'm just skeptical. ;)

 

The Sabre was originally stated to be "built from the ground up to be a dedicated “stealth” ship" during its concept sale and Q&A yet suddenly turned into "it is quick and hidden but a truly dedicated stealth fighter would be a step beyond" afterwards. So yeah, I'd take anything CIG Marketing states about the capabilities of the Prowler during concept sale with a hefty bag of salt as they will just pull their 'Subject to Change' card immediately afterwards. :P

 

But I have no interest in a Prowler (especially not for a whopping $425); not even if it had a Romulan cloaking device. Being taxidriver for a gang of people just isn't my thing. :)

You don't want to be the pilot for the paratroopers who says one line before getting shot down and blown up right after they jump out? Why not? :P

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3 hours ago, faquarl25 said:

You don't want to be the pilot for the paratroopers thats says one line before getting shot down right after they jump out? Why not? :P

I'm more of the guy that's going all Leeroy Jenkins and throwing everything including the kitchen sink at enemies. So I don't think those paratroopers would want me driving the bus. :P

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All discussion of supposed ideas of how effective this ship will be aside...people are going to buy it based off of how badass it looks. Simple as that. Anyone buying for "role" or "stats" ends up melting most of the time because, when it comes down to it, the game's still in development and things change.

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2 hours ago, Chimaera said:

All discussion of supposed ideas of how effective this ship will be aside...people are going to buy it based off of how badass it looks. Simple as that. Anyone buying for "role" or "stats" ends up melting most of the time because, when it comes down to it, the game's still in development and things change.

That's not the best way to decide which ships to buy either, because the ship designs keep changing, just like the stats.

Firstly, the Concept Sale ships aren't the finished ship designs. Second, even ships that are Hangar- and Flight-Ready can be updated and redesigned. How many times has the Hornet been redesigned now? I'm not sure if the Hornet F7A Mk. II counts as the third or fourth iteration. The Freelancer has been redesigned twice. The Constellation Andromeda and Aquila have been redesigned. The Cutlass is currently being redesigned. And the Redeemer is supposed to be redesigned. I think any ship that was Hangar Ready and Flyable before the Starfarer was released could be slated for a redesign. I think that every ship will receive at a graphics fidelity enhancement before the game's release to keep pace with the latest graphics cards.

Typically, redesigned ships look even better and more "badass", but there are always people who don't like change and might prefer the previous versions. For example, as awesome as the Hornet F7A Mk. II looks, there are some people who like the current Hornet's bulky and rugged style, and think it looks more badass than the Mk. II's smoother flowing lines and sleeker design.

So buying a ship because it looks good will probably be just as unreliable as buying ships for their stats. I think the ship's role is the most reliable metric because that seems to be the most consistent. I can't think of any ship that has radically changed roles.

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5 hours ago, Reavern said:

That's not the best way to decide which ships to buy either, because the ship designs keep changing, just like the stats.

Firstly, the Concept Sale ships aren't the finished ship designs. Second, even ships that are Hangar- and Flight-Ready can be updated and redesigned. How many times has the Hornet been redesigned now? I'm not sure if the Hornet F7A Mk. II counts as the third or fourth iteration. The Freelancer has been redesigned twice. The Constellation Andromeda and Aquila have been redesigned. The Cutlass is currently being redesigned. And the Redeemer is supposed to be redesigned. I think any ship that was Hangar Ready and Flyable before the Starfarer was released could be slated for a redesign. I think that every ship will receive at a graphics fidelity enhancement before the game's release to keep pace with the latest graphics cards.

Typically, redesigned ships look even better and more "badass", but there are always people who don't like change and might prefer the previous versions. For example, as awesome as the Hornet F7A Mk. II looks, there are some people who like the current Hornet's bulky and rugged style, and think it looks more badass than the Mk. II's smoother flowing lines and sleeker design.

So buying a ship because it looks good will probably be just as unreliable as buying ships for their stats. I think the ship's role is the most reliable metric because that seems to be the most consistent. I can't think of any ship that has radically changed roles.

Yeah just look at Javelin or Idris, unrecognizable in their final form the difference though is that Idris was boosted (2 more turrets) and Javelin extremely nerfed (top AND bottom bow turrets removed and rear turret removed = 5 lost turrets = insane nerf.

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1 minute ago, GeraldEvans said:

What gameplay do you want? Repair, exploration, combat boarding? Pick two.

I fancy the Carrack, but I think I'm more likely to use the Crucible with a group. I can explore in other ships, but I sure can't help repair a Bengal without a Crucible. 

1 minute ago, faquarl25 said:

Or all three! Gotta buy'em all!

Damn, you, sir.

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You can likely help repair a Bengal with a Carrack. It has long range scanners and comes equipped with the ability to perform minor repairs, plus it has three large pods which you could fill with material and repair drones.

Again, do you want to be engaged in combat boarding? I'd you must pick two, the Prowler seems to be the most limited platform just based on concept.

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2 minutes ago, GeraldEvans said:

You can likely help repair a Bengal with a Carrack. It has long range scanners and comes equipped with the ability to perform minor repairs, plus it has three large pods which you could fill with material and repair drones.

Again, do you want to be engaged in combat boarding? I'd you must pick two, the Prowler seems to be the most limited platform just based on concept.

A stealthy large ship 'limited'! I don't give a rat's ass about boarding. :-)

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1 minute ago, Snakebyte said:

I fancy the Carrack, but I think I'm more likely to use the Crucible with a group. I can explore in other ships, but I sure can't help repair a Bengal without a Crucible.

 

9 minutes ago, Snakebyte said:

A stealthy large ship 'limited'! I don't give a rat's ass about boarding. :-)

Let's try not to get too off-topic here; this thread is for the Esperia Prowler, not the Carrack or Crucible.

The Prowler is the ship you'd want if you were trying to commandeer a cap ship, including a Bengal Carrier that was found and operated by another Org. We don't know yet how many boarders the Prowler can carry or deploy; I presume it would take more boarders to capture a Bengal than a single Prowler could carry. And it's unlikely an Org (or even NPCs) would operate a Bengal without escorting it with starfighters and picket ships. It's possible a Prowler could slip past the Bengal's sensors and into the carrier's blindspot, but it would probably be visually spotted by one of the escort ships -- especially if multiple Prowlers were involved.

Regardless, I can imagine other roles for the Prowler. We know the Prowler is a stealth ship that carries boarders. We don't know how large the Prowler is; I believe it will be Constellation-size. I believe the Prowler could be an excellent ship for smuggling and blockade running -- assuming the Prowler's troop transport facilities could be swapped out for cargo. Worst-case scenario you'd cram boxes and crates into those areas, which lack a cargo bay's special deckplating for securing cargo. So the hypothetical "Smuggler Prowler" wouldn't be the type of smuggler ship you'd dock at a UEE spaceport and conceal contraband from the authorities using sensor-shielded cargo containers and/or secret compartments. It would be the type of smuggler ship you'd use to pick up contraband in a Lawless star system, try to navigate through UEE space undetected to avoid any inspections, and then deliver the contraband to buyers in a different Lawless star system for a hefty profit.

It's also possible the Prowler could serve as a stealth reconnaissance platform. It could be loaded with a variety of sensors, some passive, some active, and perhaps numerous probes that could be stealthily launched into space instead of deploying EVA boarders. It could potentially even deploy mines (although CIG has quashed the idea of spatial mines in the past).

In conclusion, I don't believe that the Prowler will be limited to only being a stealth boarding craft. I think that's its primary role and that's what I intend to buy it for; but I think it can fulfill at least a couple of other roles too that involve stealth.

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I am hoping we get CIG's taken on the Special Ops Hercules. It won't look much from the outside, but the kit inside will be incredible.

SB8. Special Forces HALO by Stuart Brown. <p> A four-man Special Forces patrol exit a C-130 Hercules to perform a HALO freefall insertion from 25,000ft.  HALO (High Altitude, Low Opening) operations enable Special Forces to be covertly inserted into hostile territory, often under the cover of darkness. Equipped with oxygen and heavily laden with weapons, ammunition, explosives, task specific equipment and other supplies. <b><p> Signed limited edition of 850 prints.<p> Image size 23 inches x 14 inches (59cm x 36cm)

http://www.military-art.com/mall/more.php?ProdID=21020

mc-130w combat spear

 
USAF Special Ops use the MC-130W aircraft for the following roles:
  • insertion, extraction and re supply of special operations forces by airdrop and by landing/takeoff
  • air-to-air refueling of helicopters and CV-22 Osprey aircraft
  • specialized ordnance delivery
  • psychological operations (leaflet drops)
Avionics
  • Combat Spears frequently fly at night, cloaked in darkness and so features night-vision-goggles-compatible interior and exterior lighting.
  • Combat Spears feature a fully integrated Global Positioning System and Inertial Navigation System, a AN/APN-241 Low Power Color weather/navigation Radar and a AN/AAQ-17infrared sensor.
  • The communications package on the MC-130W includes satellite and data burst capabilities.
Defensive Systems
  • A suite of radar and missile warning sensors, in addition to flare and chaff launchers provide defense against hostile weapons systems.
Refueling Systems
  • Combat Spears can receive fuel from other airborne tankers via its Universal Aerial Refueling Receptacle Slipway Installation. Mk 32B-902E refueling pods and their attached drogues allow the MC-130W to refuel special ops helicopters and CV-22 Ospreys. <= PLEASE LET IT CARRY AND REFUEL DRAGONFLIES

MC-130E flares

 
USAF Special Ops use the MC-130E/H aircraft for the following roles:
  • airdrop / airland of personnel and equipment in support of Special Operations Forces
  • deep penetration special operations helicopter in-flight refueling
  • psychological operations (leaflet and ordnance drops)

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@Snakebyte I expect (and hope) that the Prowler will fulfill similar roles to the Spec Ops Hercules from your post -- but enhanced with stealth abilities.

 

It's definitely a niche space ship intended for specific roles that I expect only hardcore players and Orgs will engage in. I'm very much interested in those roles, which is why I plan on buying the Prowler this Friday. But I can fully understand and appreciate that the Prowler won't appeal to the majority of Star Citizen players. And the $425 price tag makes it an inviting piñata to bash. TBH the Prowler -- and even more so the Polaris -- are the type of high price ships that the Haters exploit to vindictively criticize Star Citizen, so CIG isn't exactly doing themselves any favours by pricing it so high. Backers have grown accustomed to $350 ships, but anything above $400 is pushing it. The Prowler really needs to blow our minds to justify that price. I think it needs to be bundled with a couple of Dragonflies or perhaps a new parasite craft specifically for (stealth) boarding, which is/are included in the $425 price. That, or another Subscribers presale/cash discount that drops the price to $350.

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One of the things I have been looking at for deciding ships is also popularity of a particular ship/role in an organization I intend to fly with.  On the surface, that may seem kind of senseless but it is based on my fun factor.  To me, part of having fun is also being useful.  So, if I am in what looks like a typical org, everyone and his brother seems to have a Carrack.  But, there are very few Crucibles.  Admittedly, there is probably far less need for a Crucible.  But, it seems like almost no one is interested in a Prowler at this point with the limited description and large price tag.  If it can do more than just boarding, it might be one of the more useful ships around simply because no one else has one and it has uses that few/no other ships have.

Smuggling of cargo has been mentioned.  But, what about smuggling people.  I am sure there are scenarios where secure transport of other players into controlled space would be welcome.  Essentially, this is a largish, extremely stealthy ship.  The possibilities are crazy in what it might be able to do.  I am reserving judgement until I see more on the implementation they have.

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1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

One of the things I have been looking at for deciding ships is also popularity of a particular ship/role in an organization I intend to fly with.  On the surface, that may seem kind of senseless but it is based on my fun factor.  To me, part of having fun is also being useful.  So, if I am in what looks like a typical org, everyone and his brother seems to have a Carrack.  But, there are very few Crucibles.  Admittedly, there is probably far less need for a Crucible.  But, it seems like almost no one is interested in a Prowler at this point with the limited description and large price tag.  If it can do more than just boarding, it might be one of the more useful ships around simply because no one else has one and it has uses that few/no other ships have.

Smuggling of cargo has been mentioned.  But, what about smuggling people.  I am sure there are scenarios where secure transport of other players into controlled space would be welcome.  Essentially, this is a largish, extremely stealthy ship.  The possibilities are crazy in what it might be able to do.  I am reserving judgement until I see more on the implementation they have.

This is correct.

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1 hour ago, NemeSys said:

I'm betting it'll be pretty much like the rest of Esperia's lineup; $200ish worth of ship/play value, and another $200ish because *aliens*.

The Prowler isn't actually a Tevarin ship or even reproduction of a Tevarin ship, like the Glaive, so the "alien" premium doesn't really apply. The Prowler is a hybrid design produced by Esperia that combines some of the features (and possibly aesthetics) of the First Tevarin War era Tevarin boarding craft with contemporary UEE ship tech. According to SC lore, the Tevarins were technologically inferior to the UEE so it doesn't make sense that Eperia would manufacture an authentic Tevarin boarding craft with their inferior tech. It's definitely a Human-manufactured ship with many of the same components that can be found on other human ships. So I don't think the Prowler will be as "alien" as either the Vanduul Glaive or the Xi'An Khartu-Al.

I expect the Tevarin ship features of the Prowler will relate to its stealth abilities and the method it deploys EVA boarders. I imagine that the Tevarin used a crude but effective stealth tech that, 400 in-game years later, the UEE has permitted Esperia to incorporate into the civilian market Prowler. I'm certain the Prowler will be stealthy, but I believe the UEE military has far superior stealth tech, which we'll probably never be allowed to buy or own in the PU, but we might acquire and use it in SQ42.

Regarding the Prowler's Tevarin-inspired boarder deployment system, my prediction is that the Prowler will have a dorsal battery of perhaps 16 vertical launch tubes, arranged in 2 parallel columns of 8 (similar to ballistic missile launch tubes on a nuclear submarine) that will silently propel an individual marine in an EVA combat suit into space (meaning no EM or thermal emissions). I can imagine such an unconventional and risky rapid deployment method was pioneered by the Tevarins, because they needed to compensate for their technological inferiority by doing crazy and dangerous things that humans wouldn't even consider: i.e. launching a marine toward the hull of an enemy ship. SPLAT!

Of course, this is all just speculation. I could be wrong; the Prowler could be just a Redeemer clone with alien greebles on it, which would be as you said: a $200 ship + $200 "alien" markup. I would be very, very disappointed if that's the case. I have faith in CIG that they won't do that to us. ;)

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      I thought I would post this here as well as Reddit, for more exposure.
      I have a never-worn engagement ring, purchased from Fred Meyer Jewelers here in Oregon that I'd like to be rid of. Its centerpiece is a 6.5 x 4.5mm Oval Tanzanite stone, ringed by smaller diamonds. It's set into 10k white gold. The size is 4.0, but it's my understanding that it's fairly easy to get it re-sized. It also has a lifetime care plan attached to it. It also comes with all the paperwork for the care plan and the receipt from when I purchased it. It's valued at 400$ + 50$ for the care plan.
      What I'd like to do is trade it in whole or for part of an Esperia Glaive. I'm also open to other ships as well, such as a Vanguard, Carrack, or Redeemer, but I would prefer a Glaive. I can pay with cash what the ring won't cover - Despite the ring having never been worn, it's pretty difficult to sell jewelry for anywhere near the purchase price, so I thought I'd post it here first to see if there was any interest, before I put it up on eBay. If you're interested, but worried about low-balling me, don't be. I'll consider everything and would be happy to give someone a good deal.
       
      Here's a shot of the ring: http://imgur.com/a/VxbPw
      Here's one with a timestamp for proof: http://imgur.com/a/73x5C
      And if you prefer to do business over Reddit, my username is the same, and here is the link to my posting there as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/58ssrh/wtt_engagement_ring_for_esperia_glaive/
       
       
      Cheers
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