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MISC Endeavor

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6 minutes ago, Gremlich said:

AT this time, not according to the available information. The Orion is currently the only ship able to do that. As others have said, it would require another module

 

NOT an industry ship by default. How do you reach such a conclusion. It is patently a science and exploration ship that can also support both a Hospital function and agricultural research.

Processing of plants and herbs to be turned into chemical or other agents to me does signal an industrial format. Thats only one possibility.

The fact you can craft and sell overclocked modules as a business option too, does indeed highlight it's industry potential, if thats somthing people want to follow.

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18 minutes ago, Basard said:

Processing of plants and herbs to be turned into chemical or other agents to me does signal an industrial format. Thats only one possibility.

The fact you can craft and sell overclocked modules as a business option too, does indeed highlight it's industry potential, if that's somthing people want to follow.

While somewhat semantically and dictionarily correct, your ideas are a matter of scale, such a module or capability on a single ship would barely constitute an industry. "Breaking bad"-style drug production is not Industry but is a Cottage-industry. That large-scale process is found in the Pharmaceutical Industry - such as with Bayer and J&J. Again small-scale production, which can be part of Industry, isn't in and of itself, Industry with a big "I". Outfitting a whole space station to produce the things that a parent company in another system produces, makes it part of BIG industry. Covert/illegal production isn't the same. Overclocking items by a Mom and Pop? Not an industry, that's a business. Again, scale.

 

pods 1 -JumpPoint_03-10_Oct-15_Ein-Praechtiges-Unterfangen.jpg

pods 2 - JumpPoint_03-10_Oct-15_Ein-Praechtiges-Unterfangen.jpg

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It's no different from a fisherman owning 1 small fishing vessel with a crew of 10. Just because it's not on the scale of 1000-1 doesn't mean it's not an industy.

You could argue that the prospector or even the starfarer for there size can't be on the same principle of scale. It's really a fools logic to think so.

We don't even know how big these work stations currently are either. And how much product can be moved from A-B, but regardless it does constitute to an industry regardless.

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2 hours ago, Basard said:

I was refering to the size itself ingame, and the fact it's a industry ship by default.

"Industry, economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories". I'd say the Endeavor falls in line with the term "Industry" by how you set it up on a module basis.

google much? :D Industrial and industry are two separate things. It defines industry, but lacks the sizing to be industrial. I have my Endeavor Hope to look after that medical industry.

Listen to Gremlich :)

 

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6 minutes ago, Devil Khan said:

google much? :D Industrial and industry are two separate things. It defines industry, but lacks the sizing to be industrial. I have my Endeavor Hope to look after that medical industry.

Listen to Gremlich :)

 

Nothing wrong with googling, aslong as it provides a line of truth. Inwhich i'd say it has. :)

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6 minutes ago, Gremlich said:

cot·tage in·dus·try
noun
a business or manufacturing activity carried on in a person's home ship.

This is what we'll be able to do. Scale, mate, it comes down to scale.

So we'll all be jumping on the bandwagon if making these chemicals / OC parts make some serious $ and have a Big industry / cartel. ^.^

So like anything (ship) increase the numbers to increase the scale.

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30 minutes ago, Basard said:

So like anything (ship) increase the numbers to increase the scale.

Yes, exactly. One Endeavour in each (or a whole lot of them) system producing the same widget I would say constitutes an Industry with a captial "I".

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2 minutes ago, Gremlich said:

Yes, exactly. One Endeavour in each (or a whole lot of them) system producing the same widget I would say constitutes an Industry with a captial "I".

Same for the Orion and Reclaimer Agree! :)

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On 3/5/2017 at 2:37 PM, Gremlich said:

Yes, exactly. One Endeavour in each (or a whole lot of them) system producing the same widget I would say constitutes an Industry with a captial "I".

Would you still say it's up in the air on what you're considering to produce? "Plants/Animals/Overclocking/research"  My concern is Plants, you have to get a specific radiation so traveling to a location, some not being safe and I assume there's the same "Risk Reward" for other modules.  If there's something I can sit in safe space and mass produce multiple products at once while profiting, I'm interested.  

 I assume Overclocking we would have to interact with since SC wants some things like Repair to be skill based, just theory though. Animals and farms I feel could be periodical harvesting but would be low return in safe space.

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13 hours ago, Switch said:

Would you still say it's up in the air on what you're considering to produce? "Plants/Animals/Overclocking/research"  My concern is Plants, you have to get a specific radiation so traveling to a location, some not being safe and I assume there's the same "Risk Reward" for other modules.  If there's something I can sit in safe space and mass produce multiple products at once while profiting, I'm interested.  

 I assume Overclocking we would have to interact with since SC wants some things like Repair to be skill based, just theory though. Animals and farms I feel could be periodical harvesting but would be low return in safe space.

IRL, we can replicate many different types of light artificially, so well in fact, that plants can't tell. Of course, as part of SC lore, there could be background radiation combined with a specific light frequency that makes the difference in a given system.

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On 3/6/2017 at 3:23 AM, Basard said:

Processing of plants and herbs to be turned into chemical or other agents to me does signal an industrial format. Thats only one possibility.

The fact you can craft and sell overclocked modules as a business option too, does indeed highlight it's industry potential, if thats somthing people want to follow.

The Endeavor is probably the most flexible profession platform in Star Citizen:

- Doing Research and attendant science qualifies as a 'scientific research business'

- Running a Hospital qualifies as 'medical business'

- Growing Chia Seeds, ganja or coconuts qualifies as an 'agricultural business'

- Manufacturing refined drugs, chemicals and agents from raw materials does qualify as 'industrial business'

- Researching ship technologies and then tuning and upgrading ship components qualifies as a 'technical? business' (or something)

- Having the command module sit inside the corona of a Sun for insanely hot levels of research qualifies as "adrenaline junky with sponsors"...?

 

This previously unseen level of flexibility for a single ship is mitigated by the fact that you have to buy expensive modules for everything you want to do. If you didn't buy the master pack, everything would set you back somewhere around $1200?

 

But while I agree with you, that the Endeavor is capable of certain industrial tasks, I can't take that to mean it should be capable of doing any and all industrial tasks.

As owners, we should probably count our blessings and hope that CIG doesn't cut the one thing you or I really want to do with it.

 

Admittedly, its out of personal bias, that I don't mind if it has no mining or salvaging capability. I wasn't a Redeemer or Orion customer, even though I think either of those two ships look better than the Endeavor, which I definitely wouldn't have bought for its looks.

 

If CIG adds a mining module at some point, all the power to you, but I'd want to first see them actually complete what has been promised for it

On 3/14/2017 at 7:38 AM, Gremlich said:

IRL, we can replicate many different types of light artificially, so well in fact, that plants can't tell. Of course, as part of SC lore, there could be background radiation combined with a specific light frequency that makes the difference in a given system.

You're forgetting that CIG are total Steampunkers!  ;-)

 

Star Citizen is full of annoying WW2 anachronisms that we can do way better today (but also, they need a reason to send you to far away suns in pirate and Vanduul territory).

Lets start with Cockpit glass: We can already make very hard yet flexible glass in any shape we want (given deep enough pockets), so  WW2 cockpit struts are a ridiculous annoyance in the 29th century. 

Same goes for permanently smeared, dirty glass...    Every driver knows the annoyance and doesn't want it duplicated in a space sim.  There isn't a single positive or otherwise redeeming aspect to dirty windows, unless you're fogging them up with your breath or your ship is loosing its temperature control or atmosphere, or some chemical is spraying against it due to some kind of defect on the bridge.

 

 

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Any Endeavor owners out there having second thoughts about this ship?  Why do you keep it if so?

I've held this ship for awhile, but am wondering now if they will be able to pull off the significant modularity, seeing the direction modularity has gone on (or not) other smaller ships.  And will a massive science ship truly be able to attract players for some type of group science game play?  If there is concern about finding enough gunners on an Idris, I'm leaning towards maybe not.  So I'm starting to consider if future mid-sized science vessels might be a better bet.

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I wouldn't worry about the Endeavor until CIG comes out and says they can't do it.

Everything they build is modular, with re-usable, repeating sub-components. The only thing special about the Endeavor would be, that they expose slightly more of the modularity.

As for possible mid-sized science ships - I wouldn't really be interested, unless they do a role I have a particular interest in much better than the Endeavor.

 

If you take the recent medical ship - you could say its better or worse than the Endeavor - depending on your use case.  If you're talking about maximum beds and maximum capability, the Endeavor is still the best.  If you're talking about S&R, then the new med ship may be more convenient to use.

Does this translate to other science roles?  Maybe some, but not all.

The Endeavor can serve as a drive-in component upgrading shop, where you get your items upgraded while you wait.  And its described as having the highest end capability bar none. 

 

I'm much more worried about 2022 passing without a Star Citizen release, than I am about the Endeavor being "too hard for CIG to build"

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44 minutes ago, Pharesm said:

 

I'm much more worried about 2022 passing without a Star Citizen release, than I am about the Endeavor being "too hard for CIG to build"

Taking into account keynotes from the Road To Release, only 3 major hurdles remain: Organisation system, Full persistence and Server Meshing. OCS took a long time to develop (18 months so far) but I don't think that these last 3 goals are as complicated to achieve and the 4 year target that you've set should be more than enough time to overcome them and have some sort of (limited) release.

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1 hour ago, LowZone said:

Taking into account keynotes from the Road To Release, only 3 major hurdles remain: Organisation system, Full persistence and Server Meshing. OCS took a long time to develop (18 months so far) but I don't think that these last 3 goals are as complicated to achieve and the 4 year target that you've set should be more than enough time to overcome them and have some sort of (limited) release.

limited release...?  2022 wasn't meant as a 'target'...  The target was 2014 - in writing... Nobody forced CR's hand to put a fixed release date.

And I remember all their previous status and progress reports being massively short of actual - including one example, where they said during a sale, that something was almost done and going to be out by xmas, when its development hadn't actually been started yet: a blatant lie to boost sales.

Then there's the ever devolving flight model. Pritchett apparently got fired (Youtube source) or quit.

And CIG's iffy claim, that they "already delivered a game" as part of their reasoning that there will be no more refunds. I'm dubious about their time line and if Star Citizen will have anywhere near the claimed 100-150 systems

 

But lets say they 'release' something in whatever year - when will the sole reason for my backing this Decade long merchandising train show up?

What was it?  A million backers don't even know about it - 2 of the 5 main Kickstarter promises consisted of private servers and modding tools.

The sole reason why I bothered to back this, rather than waiting until the reviews are in, as I normally do. 

 

And now, its at the point where I question if I'll even be maintaining an Internet connection anymore, by the time they produce something playable. The time frame given was 2014-2015 and the game was going to be smallish.  A game, not a logistics filled full time job "Universe, not a game" (CR)

 

Do you believe CIG's line, that "backers voted with their wallets" to turn this project from the 2 Year bicycle project offered into a 10 Year helicopter project?
Once you sold something on Kickstarter, there is no such thing as voting to make it a different product, unless you refund all the people who have no interest in getting something completely different from what they paid for.

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Yes @Pharesm, that's exactly what happened. CR specifically said, "The scope of the game will increase with the amount of funding". So it is written, so let it be done. The backers absolutely voted with their wallets. Not all backers mind you, but enough to push the funding to astronomical levels no one ever thought was possible. Some people love it, some people hate it, but at the end of the day, it is what it is. Ironically, when backing any kickstarter such as Star Citizen, you really don't know what you were paying for at the time. It could have turned out to be anything, or nothing at all. Considering failure is a real possibility for any crowd funded project. 

I am of the opinion that most people who bought into the whole, "we have no publisher to hold us back" or the "stick it to the big publisher" line may not have been listening or not had the foresight to know what that would entail. Are folks tired of waiting? Yes. Myself included, but now that we are here, at this moment in time, most people that I talk to are more optimistic than pessimistic. Which is as it should be. It's not fun living in the dark hole of the past passing judgement and second guessing every decision made that has been far beyond our control. Personally I am content with the state of the game and I also understand that to make a great game takes a significant amount of time. Considering the increase in scope, it is entirely possible that the full functionality of the persistent universe not be realized for several year to come. However, the game as you describe it, may be found in Squadron 42, or it may not.

As far as the technical limitations of what can and can not be done, any armchair developer can say something can not be done. Mostly because they don't have the technical skills or the knowledge to create the impossible. Mind you, I realize that nothing that you have stated above is nonfactual but in my eyes, it really comes down to a matter of perception and patience.

Furthermore, the story regarding John leaving CIG has been clarified long ago. Please reference the following.

In closing, my deepest sympathies go out to you and any other backer that is not satisfied with the direction CIG has taken. But again I say, it is what it is and now that it has been ruled in a US court that CIG is not liable to refund backer funds at this time I find the discussion to be a dead horse. One thing is for certain, venting about how things have changed will not change a thing. 

Edit. please do not tag me to solicit a response. There will be no need for further discussion on my part regarding the above topics. Thank you!

Now, on to the topic at hand. I think people would be surprised regarding the number of current and future backers that will be more interested in the exploration and/or science aspect of this project over those who would prefer straight up combat. You may ask, juntau, how do you know this? Because it is my business to know where the pulse of the community is at any given time. See https://thebase.sc/ for details.  

To the question, will I be able to find suitable crew for my Endevour? The answer is a big fat maybe. Do you have the ability to make lots of friends? Then it is possible. Are you more of a loner that wants to do things your way? Then the answer will likely be, no. Will everyone who has one of these big ships be able to operate it daily? When you sit down and do the math, the answer is a definite no. There are simply not enough players to man every capital ship every day. With that said, there is a glimmer of hope for capital ship owners. That is, the Aurora pilot. It is likely that single ship owners will like to participate in capital ship shenanigans. So my advice would be, play nice and make lots and lots of friends. You're going to need them!

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CR did NOT set a firm date during the Kickstartr.

Quote from the Kickstarter page:

"Estimated delivery: November 2014"

"Estimated" look up what that word actually means. Yeah, CIG kinda overloaded its ass even suggesting that goal, but anybody with ANY knowledge of video game development would have seen, based on the scope of TWO games, that 2014 was realistically unachieveable as a solid date once they started imaginating what was possible with the tech at the time and since.

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- There was another written location, not on Kickstarter where they gave a specific release date, not a rough range.  Also, a two-man team managed to complete the space game Rebel Galaxy in less than 2 Years and it was a hoot to play.

- I'd appreciate a source on the U.S. court judgement stating no refunds. 

- It is highly unlikely that is universally applicable, as each backer's standing depends on the terms in effect at the time of their purchase/pledge.  These terms have been changed by CIG multiple times, so that later backers indeed have worse standing when it comes to what they have been offered by / accepted from CIG.

 

I guarantee you that any early backer can get a refund if private servers / modding tools are not delivered. This was also the case with Frontier's failure to deliver the promised off-line game. They tried to hush the court decision by quietly settling with anyone who threatened to get a lawyer.

Consumer laws cannot be evaded by use of Kickstarter.  The Kickstarter risk is not a lack of rights, the risk is, that there may be nothing left to recover.

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I'm with Juntau on this one. Here here!

@Sky Captain I'm a capital ship-oriented player. With an interest in logistics and FPS/ground-play, I'm keeping the Endeavour for the Hope-class hospital. It'll likely be top of its class and it seems like a perfect ship to add to my fleet. Then again, I only bought it because I'm solely interested in medical gameplay opportunities it provides. 

I'd wait to hear more about game mechanics before settling on a conclusion. :) 

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