Idris(M) vs Idris(P)

[CatinHat]

Idris(M)

6 x Class 5: Behring M3C ASA Turrets
1 x Class 6: Behring M5C STS Turret
1 x Class 6: A&R Plowshare Anti-Ship Missile Launcher (ASML)
1 x Class 8: Klaus & Werner Zestroyer Spinal Mount Rail Gun

 

Idris(P)

7 x Class 5: Behring M3C ASA Turrets
1 x Class 6: Behring M5C STS Turret

 

-----------------------------------

What roles do you guys see the two ships?

How much of impact will the railgun have over not having?

How many people you think will upgrade to the (M) when they sell the kits for the (P)?

 

 

 

[Ephraim Tannhauser]

They will serve different roles, IMHO.

 

The -M strikes me as being something of a mini-destroyer.  The spinal rail gun should pack enough punch to go toe-to-toe with other corvettes.  On the other hand, it's very focused in scope - traders and explorers won't find as much use for it.

 

The -P is more well-rounded.  While it would probably lose hands-down to a -M, it would hold its own against smaller craft.  In fact, the additional M3A turret might allow the -P to function better in an anti-fighter role than the -M, which is focused on fighting other capital ships.  The expanded cargo capacity would allow traders to haul more goods, and explorers to stockpile more fuel.  I would also imagine that the -P would have more upgrade slots (due to the lack of rail gun) which could allow for more customization than the -M.

 

When it comes down to it, the -P is probably better in the long run but the -M wins in coolness factor.

[Debonair]

I hope the extra $250 difference would be justified later by the devs. Thats my only concern.

Maybe the P has a better power plant and thrusters that cost in-game more than a rail-gun and cruise missile systems.

[CatinHat]

I wonder where the 1 x Class 6: A&R Plowshare Anti-Ship Missile Launcher (ASML) is on the (M). Because it looks like both get missile launchers both the front and back. Wounder what type of impact on ship fighting these (ASML)'s will have.

[Golden']

Look at this size comparison:

 

 

What roles do you guys see the two ships?

 

(M) - System defense and Heavy Escort. The Idris isn't large enough and doesn't have enough firepower to be an assault ship. It isn't large enough to be a Capital ship for the UEE, maybe for (Non-Player) smaller military factions and Corporations. It might be used in large numbers for system defense. It also might be used as a Heavy escort for capital ships, it also might be used as armored transport.

 

(P) - Capital Ship, Light Assault Ship, Interceptor and Armored Transport. It depends on who is using it, but this ship will be used by smaller factions as a Capital Ship. It might be used by pirates or mercenaries as a Light Assault ship against lone targets and also might be used as Interceptor (Because it's jump capable) and Armored transport for High Value Cargo.

 

How much of impact will the railgun have over not having?

 

It depends on how powerful that gun is, but it's still a downside of the P variant since less firepower means less protection against pirates and rival companies.

 

How many people you think will upgrade to the (M) when they sell the kits for the (P)?

 

I don't really think they will sell kits for the P.

[Tamcia]

1st - anti capital ship (missiles+railgun)

2nd - anti small/medium craft (more turrets)

 

At this point i'd say the anticapital would be better. You won't be flying this alone, but with escort that should take care of smaller craft (and you still have a good number of turrets), but against other capital ship it can pack a punch. Not sure how the railgun and missile damage measures with that of a retaliator or gladiator bombers, but I'd guess railgun has good range, although you'd have to point the ship straight and with this size it's not easy. 

 

Also the image scale - isn't  the Bengal is too big?

[Golden']

Also the image scale - isn't  the Bengal is too big?

 

It's 1,000m, think it's correct. The Size of the bigger ships (besides the carrier) are estimated from scale of people in the original images.  

[eNeRGy]

Also the image scale - isn't  the Bengal is too big?

 

It's probably about right.  But it is damn massive! 

 

Also, considering that CR said that the Bengal would not be purchasable, but would need to be taken by force, I can't wait to see the first assault on one! 

[Tamcia]

So I went to watch the first trailer, with the Bengal carrier to check the size. Yup, pretty much a hornet is the size of a turret on Bengal. I just wonder if Idris will be blasted into tiny bits - the turret size difference (assuming correlates with ordnance caliber) between the two capitals is massive.  

[scheherazade]

I'm starting to see the idris as a stand-back repair/refuel platfom for fighters.

Good for vanduul raiding, and general fighter support.

 

I think I'd like the spinal mount.

But I prefer the AA gun of the P over the ship2ship gun on the M ... unless the ship2ship guns work out well for AA too.

 

-scheherazade

[Ephraim Tannhauser]

I can't wait to see the 100:1 longshot of a rail gun round pulverizing a moving Constellation.  It'd be like hitting a deer with a Revolutionary War solid-ball cannon.

[CatinHat]

I can't wait to see the 100:1 longshot of a rail gun round pulverizing a moving Constellation.  It'd be like hitting a deer with a Revolutionary War solid-ball cannon.

Maybe that is where the A&R Plowshare Anti-Ship Missile Launcher (ASML) comes into play?

 

I do wish there was more information about those two ships and how they are different at least the weapons.

[oramac]

Both look like WWII ships to me, though personally I like the look the -P more.  

 

Strategically, I agree with most people that they'll fill different roles depending on load out.  Though I think it'll be a lot closer than we may be led to believe.  They're essentially the same ship with different guns and cargo bays.  The basic design and, so far as we know, powerplants/thrusters are all the same.  

 

I am curious as to the power of the railgun.  Last I saw it was supposed to be 130m long or some such.  Considering we've currently got railguns around 10m long that can shoot things in the supersonic range, what kind of power will the Idris rail gun have?   I'd guess near-light-speed projectiles, especially in space where there's no appreciable drag.  

[scheherazade]

In space there is no air to insulate, or to conduct/diffuse.

 

In space you can actually make a lightning gun, because you can fire directed electrons and they will keep propagating.

 

A very high voltage gun like a railgun, given existing tech, placed into space/vacuum, would likely have a set of new issues to resolve.

 

-scheherazade

[Ephraim Tannhauser]

Strategically, I agree with most people that they'll fill different roles depending on load out.  Though I think it'll be a lot closer than we may be led to believe.  They're essentially the same ship with different guns and cargo bays.  The basic design and, so far as we know, powerplants/thrusters are all the same. 

 

Also, these are only the stock options.  I'm sure that they'll eventually be modded by the owners into an unrecognizable state, with all manner of third-party equipment.  Who knows what shapes they'll take?

[Dunnlang]

I have read a few posts from developers who seem to suggest that the Idris-P will be the one you want if you plan to make money with it.  It does have 20% more cargo space at least.  

 

The real question mark is how much will these fine ships cost to operate.  Crewed by NPCs or players, both ways will cost money.  The ship mass is not too much more than a Starfarer, but it has 8 engines.  I wonder if that will be fuel efficient or not.  If the turrets are not terribly effective against small craft, you will need to hire more escort too.

 

Dev statements have indicated that a fully upgraded Idris will be quite the unstoppable beast.  I shudder to think at how expensive they will be to upgrade.  Friends will have gone through two new ships and a variety of equipment load outs, while I am still trying to earn enough to replace 8 engines, or my shield system.

 

I have heard some players suggest that you could fit more small craft, like the P52 on an Idris than the 2 Hornets that would normally fit.  Does anyone have any insight into how we can fit ships on an open hanger deck?

[Bearcat]

I have heard some players suggest that you could fit more small craft, like the P52 on an Idris than the 2 Hornets that would normally fit.  Does anyone have any insight into how we can fit ships on an open hanger deck?

I'm not sure, CIG might limit us to the 2 fighters.  But if you look at it just in terms of deck space, it seems like you could put 3-4 Hornets in there.

[Bearcat]

I concur with scheherazade, my plan for the Idris is one of fighter support.  Initially I was looking at the P as a downgraded version of the M, and maybe that's true in terms of parts value, but the P should be more effective in a fighter support role.  My plan is to swap out those ship to ship missiles for anti-fighter/anti-torpedo systems.  The P is already faster than any other capital ship in the game, so it will never have to stick around for a capital ship fight.  Might as well make it invincible against bombers, and use the extra 20 tons of cargo to haul extra fuel and ammo for the fighters.

 

Edit: As far as fighter support, half of what either Idris could contribute may be sensor coverage.  That big radar system might be able to pick out choice targets over a large area, rather than the fighters just flying circles and hoping for an encounter.

[Reavern]

I concur with scheherazade, my plan for the Idris is one of fighter support.  Initially I was looking at the P as a downgraded version of the M, and maybe that's true in terms of parts value, but the P should be more effective in a fighter support role.  My plan is to swap out those ship to ship missiles for anti-fighter/anti-torpedo systems.  The P is already faster than any other capital ship in the game, so it will never have to stick around for a capital ship fight.  Might as well make it invincible against bombers, and use the extra 20 tons of cargo to haul extra fuel and ammo for the fighters.

 

Edit: As far as fighter support, half of what either Idris could contribute may be sensor coverage.  That big radar system might be able to pick out choice targets over a large area, rather than the fighters just flying circles and hoping for an encounter.

 

Where'd you get the information that the Idris-P is the fastest cap ship in the game?

 

As the smallest cap ship, that's a plausible assumption -- but I'm not aware of any information confirming it.

[Bearcat]

Where'd you get the information that the Idris-P is the fastest cap ship in the game?

 

As the smallest cap ship, that's a plausible assumption -- but I'm not aware of any information confirming it.

 

Fair enough, that was an assumption.  Wing Commander/Privateer, and by some indications Star Citizen, seem to follow an unwritten rule that bigger is slower.  Corvette is likely to be the smallest class of capital ship, and the -P version is said to be faster.  So my primary concern in terms of defending a -P is Retaliators.

[Ephraim Tannhauser]

Fair enough, that was an assumption.  Wing Commander/Privateer, and by some indications Star Citizen, seem to follow an unwritten rule that bigger is slower.  Corvette is likely to be the smallest class of capital ship, and the -P version is said to be faster.  So my primary concern in terms of defending a -P is Retaliators.

 

I'm of the same general principle, unless they make an exception for a particularly fast frigate or destroyer by name.

 

On the subject of speed, I'm thinking that Retaliators will be less of a threat.  Torpedoes are, historically in other games, extremely damaging but also extremely slow.  I think that the Idris will still have enough speed to out-maneuver them.  The Retaliator also strikes me as being relatively slow, so it would have to fire its payload at long range to avoid the brunt of accurate turret-fire.

 

The Gladiator, however, still packs something like 6 missile hardpoints and should be quick enough to avoid defensive fire and unload its torpedoes at close range.  That's the bomber that really worries me.

 

EDIT:  The Gladiator carries 6 missiles.  The Retaliator carries 12.

[LightMonk]

On the subject of speed, I'm thinking that Retaliators will be less of a threat.  Torpedoes are, historically in other games, extremely damaging but also extremely slow.  I think that the Idris will still have enough speed to out-maneuver them.

 

[BladeNZ]

@ LightMonk: I watched that soo many times as a kid.

[Reavern]

I'm of the same general principle, unless they make an exception for a particularly fast frigate or destroyer by name.

 

On the subject of speed, I'm thinking that Retaliators will be less of a threat.  Torpedoes are, historically in other games, extremely damaging but also extremely slow.  I think that the Idris will still have enough speed to out-maneuver them.  The Retaliator also strikes me as being relatively slow, so it would have to fire its payload at long range to avoid the brunt of accurate turret-fire.

 

The Gladiator, however, still packs something like 12 missile hardpoints and should be quick enough to avoid defensive fire and unload its torpedoes at close range.  That's the bomber that really worries me.

 

Firstly, I don't think the Star Citizen should follow the lead of any other game, including Wing Commander and Freelancer -- SC should blaze its own trail and be the space combat MMO that sets the new benchmark of how all other genre games are compared.

 

Therefore, the idea that spatial torpedoes must be extremely slow to balance their extreme destructive power, that's an outmoded idea. The only reason why people believe that torpedoes must be slow is because RL torpedoes travel through water, which makes them much slower than missiles travelling through air. But in space, torpedoes won't be restricted by water (or air), so they should be able to travel just as fast as missiles.

 

The idea that a 140+ ton corvette can outrun or outmaneuver an anti-capital ship torpedo is ridiculous, regardless of how fast the Idris-P is. That's like a 70 ton main battle tank being able to outrun a Hellfire missile.  It's absurd. A torpedo might miss, or be intercepted by point-defence guns, or fooled by countermeasures, or jammed by an ECM -- but a torpedo isn't going to get deked by a cap ship.

 

I disagree that the Retaliator will be slow. It has 5 x TR5 main thrusters and weighs 89 tons, plus up to 30 tons of bombs/torpedoes. The Constellation weighs 75 tons and has 4 x TR6 mains. The Gladiator is 38 tons plus 10 tons of bombs/torpedoes, and it only has a single TR4 main thruster (like the Hornet). The Retaliator should be much faster than a Gladiator.

 

Doing a very simple comparison of thrusters to mass ratio, and ignoring the difference in thrust power of each thruster class/size (because we don't know the numbers yet), the following is the amount of mass each main thruster has to propel for each ship:

 

Aurora LX (1 x TR3) = 16.5 tons

325a (1 x TR3) = 20 tons

350r (2 x TR3) = 17 tons / 2 = 8.5 tons

Hornet (1 x TR4) = 22 tons

Cutlass (1 x TR4) = 35 tons

M50 (2 x TR4) = 14 tons / 2 = 7 tons

Avenger (1 x TR5) = 32 tons

Vanduul Scythe (2 x TR4) = 19 tons / 2 = 9.5 tons

Gladiator (1 x TR4) = 38 tons + 10 tons (ordinance) = 48 tons

Freelancer (2 x TR5) = 55 tons / 2 = 27.5 tons

Constellation (4 x TR6) = 75 tons / 4 = 18.75 tons

Retaliator (5 x TR5) = 89 tons + 30 tons (ordinance) / 5 = 23.8 tons

Caterpillar (2 x TR5) = 68 tons / 2 = 34 tons

Starfarer (4 x TR4) = 125 tons / 4 = 31.25 tons

Idris (8 x TR4) = 139* tons / 8 = 17.375 tons

 

Lowest Mass to Thruster Ratio:

• M50: 7 tons

• Vanduul Scythe: 9.5 tons

• 350r: 8.5 tons

• Aurora LX: 16.5 tons

• Idris*: 17.375 tons

• Constellation: 18.75 tons

• 325a: 20 tons

• Hornet: 22 tons

• Retaliator: 23.8 tons

• Freelancer: 27.5 tons

• Starfarer: 31.25 tons

• Avenger: 32 tons

• Caterpillar: 34 tons

• Cutlass: 35 tons

• Gladiator: 48 tons

 

(* - The Idris' supposed mass of 139 tons is almost certainly wrong. It's implausible for a ship of its size: 140 metres. I included it to demonstrate how ridiculous it is that Idris is one of "the fastest ships.")

 

A fully loaded Retaliator should be faster than many ships without any cargo. The Retaliator should be faster than both a loaded (48 ton) and unloaded (38 ton) Gladiator, and an empty Freelancer. A Retaliator could be faster than a Hornet, when you consider the Retaliator has TR5 mains and the Hornet only has a TR4. Therefore, the assumption that the Retaliator is "slow" is baseless. It's fair to assume the a Retaliator won't be an agile ship, but it's unfair to condemn it as slow.

 

I expect the best tactic for using Retaliators will be to position them toward the rear of a fleet formation, with starfighters at the front to engage and occupy the enemy's interceptors, and then order the strategic bombers execute their torpedo or bombing runs by flying directly toward the target at maximum speed. Only M50s, 350r's, Scythes, and Constellations should be able to chase down a Retaliator flying at maximum speed. Other ships, like a Hornet, could execute a head-on attack against an incoming Retaliator, but once they passed each other, a Hornet shouldn't be able to turn around catch up to it. The Retaliators would launch as many bombs or torpedoes as they could against their targets, then continue on their course out of the centre of the battle, then turn around, execute a second bombing run, and repeat until they're out of ordinance and have to RTB to rearm.

 

The Gladiator should be much slower than the Retaliator, because it only has a single TR4 main thruster to propel its 38 ton bulk, plus an addition 10 tons of ordinance. Also, the Gladiator only has 6 Class-3 missile hardpoints, not 12. The Retaliator has 12. The Gladiator should be much slower than the Retaliator, and multiple Gladiators would be requited to match a single Retaliator. The torpedo/dive bombers would need to be escorted by starfighters to stand a chance at reaching their targets and returning to base alive.

[Dunnlang]

Today, right now, we have AI controlled gun turrets that can shoot cruise missiles out of the sky (see Phalanx CIWS).  Cruise missiles fly at several times the speed of sound.  They are by no means slow.  Cruise missiles are also largely useless against any ship equipped with such a gun system.

 

Concessions need to be made for fun and game balance.  Most aspects of the game are being designed around WWII, when human perception, intuition and reaction times were more useful.

 

The forums are constantly aflame with players who want to punish anyone who uses an NPC or AI, by making them "always" worse than having a real player manning said station.  If the game is to be balanced such that real players can have a greater impact than an NPC or AI, then torpedoes will have to be slowed down and have a chance of being dodged or shot down by a human player.

 

Slow is not baseless, it is a necessary balancing factor for the big boom that a player expects from such a weapon.