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RSI - Phoenix (Constellation)


VoA

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@Wu Jen, that is simply not true. See below. Are you trying to be inflammatory or did you not read Ben Lesnick's post? You and @VoA clearly do not agree (and VoA does seem to view the Phoenix stats through a very favorable filter,) however, it is clear that the Phoenix's parts will not be "crap." And while it might it be "better" to have a Hornet on your wing in some situations, that is what your squad mates are for. Either way, you should read Ben's post if you have not--and if you already have, then your post seems pretty flamey...

 

@Wu Jen certainly did use some stronger words ( and might be inflammatory) but his idea regarding the level 1-10 gear is not wrong.  

 

CR stated since the very beginning (of the game development) that any stock equipment will be mass production version, there will be better items out there in the universe for us to find.

 

Therefore, Ben's statement regarding "top-of-the-line" component is limited to mass production versions. And it's very possible that the Level 4 (arbitrary of course) gear is the top-of-the-line for mass production items. There are higher level gears for us to find in the game.

 

(Not to mention car manufactures always state they use top-of-the-line component, but we can always find better aftermarket parts later)

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I was about to use the same analogy regarding car manufacturers. Although manufacturers claim that OEM is top of the line there is always aftermarket parts and even entire tuning companies that will take a stock vehicle and squeeze every bit of performance out of them.

 

I hope I can still upgrade my Phoenix, otherwise Star Citizen would be a VERY boring game!

 

I don't disagree with you @ or @Morgenroete, I just felt that the post I quoted previously was not super respectful to a fellow Imperium Member, or grounded in the only "real" (as real as pre-alpha can be) data we actually have on this make-believe, video game, hot tub equipped, space ship... (I did mention how much I dislike the hot tub, right?)

All jokes aside, all of these ships will be super cool, and they all are SUPER expensive. Chris Roberts is making a bundle off of us, and I'm not mad about it at all. If people are OK paying a good deal extra for some added perks on a Phoenix, good on them. But arguing about the ships at this point is pretty silly in my opinion. 

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Agree to disagree guys :)

 

We'll find out in time what the real stats and level of gear are.

+1 Sounds good :thumb:   --- responding the posts below to answer questions or to clarify something that was previously discussed - not to bringing up more points to draw out the debate.  As you point out we will see the real stats in time (as the game evolves).  - The last link in this post (and the new thread with embedded video including Ben's latest Post) should end this debate. :toot:

 

On the brochure, the Class 3 hardpoints of Phoenix are listed as 4 x Size 1, while the equipment stated to be Class 2. Still waiting for clarification.

 

un...and the Class-5 AS-74 Needle...I'm not entirely sure it should be directly compared to CF-337 Rhino.

Needle sounds more like a defensive weaponry: Fast firing to make a smoke screen. Useful to secure the escape route up front.

Rhino - Offensive weaponry - we came with a punch.

 In both cases the Phoenix will have the "Superior Engineered product" = "Better" = (per Ben) = "the ship uses top-of-the-line components" (yes I saw your last post see below)... we can't go by what it "sounds" like... we have to go by the description of higher quality that we were given (and were intended by CIG).

 

imho, Andromeda will be "better" for trying to take down other fighters, while Phoenix will be "better" for protecting its occupants (mostly VIPs) life. 

 

 

 How will the Andromeda be "better" for trying to take out other Fighters?  Isn't that subjective (especially given light of the equipment comparisons).  What we "know" to date indicates that the Phoenix is the "better" fighter.

 

 

...

Trying not to draw out the debate - but just to clarify - there are things like the stronger Hull, P72, Class 9 Weapon, etc... that will probably never be available for "upgrade" on another Connie - correct?

 

 

@Wu Jen certainly did use some stronger words ( and might be inflammatory) but his idea regarding the level 1-10 gear is not wrong.  

 

CR stated since the very beginning (of the game development) that any stock equipment will be mass production version, there will be better items out there in the universe for us to find.

 

Therefore, Ben's statement regarding "top-of-the-line" component is limited to mass production versions. And it's very possible that the Level 4 (arbitrary of course) gear is the top-of-the-line for mass production items. There are higher level gears for us to find in the game.

 

(Not to mention car manufactures always state they use top-of-the-line component, but we can always find better aftermarket parts later)

 

Wanted to make a point for those that think the brochures are "just trying to sell us" on their products.  If a manufacturer (this works this way in the real world).... says they have a "Superior Engineered Product" or per Ben ("the ship uses top-of-the-line components ")... That means that manufacture has to "have proof" through some kind of performance test vs other "industry standard" products === Otherwise it is Fraud and they get Sued.

 

This all means that CIG intended and "will make" the Phoenix the "top-of-the-line" in everything that it differs from another Connie.  So anyone claiming subjectively otherwise needs to prove their claims beyond personal opinion or speculation.  The Phoenix is getting a bad wrap (mainly because it was first marketed as a "Luxury Connie" by Sandi's leaked pictures)... and people should NOT be making rash decisions to melt their Phoenix.  Ben has a new post... and DiscoLando has a relevant Video on this which should put this debate to rest.  See

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I hope I can still upgrade my Phoenix, otherwise Star Citizen would be a VERY boring game!

 

I don't disagree with you @ or @Morgenroete, I just felt that the post I quoted previously was not super respectful to a fellow Imperium Member, or grounded in the only "real" (as real as pre-alpha can be) data we actually have on this make-believe, video game, hot tub equipped, space ship... (I did mention how much I dislike the hot tub, right?)

All jokes aside, all of these ships will be super cool, and they all are SUPER expensive. Chris Roberts is making a bundle off of us, and I'm not mad about it at all. If people are OK paying a good deal extra for some added perks on a Phoenix, good on them. But arguing about the ships at this point is pretty silly in my opinion. 

And we still didn't get our letter! *riot mode

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 In both cases the Phoenix will have the "Superior Engineered product" = "Better" = (per Ben) = "the ship uses top-of-the-line components" (yes I saw your last post see below)... we can't go by what it "sounds" like... we have to go by the description of higher quality that we were given (and were intended by CIG).

 

 How will the Andromeda be "better" for trying to take out other Fighters?  Isn't that subjective (especially given light of the equipment comparisons).  What we "know" to date indicates that the Phoenix is the "better" fighter.

 

Trying not to draw out the debate - but just to clarify - there are things like the stronger Hull, P72, Class 9 Weapon, etc... that will probably never be available for "upgrade" on another Connie - correct?

 

Wanted to make a point for those that think the brochures are "just trying to sell us" on their products.  If a manufacturer (this works this way in the real world).... says they have a "Superior Engineered Product" or per Ben ("the ship uses top-of-the-line components ")... That means that manufacture has to "have proof" through some kind of performance test vs other "industry standard" products === Otherwise it is Fraud and they get Sued.

 

 

Yeah, it's all speculation and opinions are all subjective.

However, from the previous limited editions we can actually see a trend about their style of design.

For example, 350R is racing oriented. Can we say it's better than other 300 series line-up? Certainly! But only to some extend.

For Freelancer line-up, can we say MIS, the limited ediction, is better? Certainly! But, again, only to some extend

 

For every ship line-up thus far, CIG always give a ship it's intended role, and it's quite obvious.

Following this observation we can safely assume it's very likely that CIG also give a role to each Constellations:

 

Let's use the official description, shall we?

Taurus - Transport

Aquila - Exploration

Andromeda - Multi-function 

Phoenix - Luxury Touring

A dedicated luxury spacecraft for the discerning star captain.

The Constellation Phoenix can be operated as an organization command ship and features a luxurious redesigned interior.

Includes a hidden sensor-dampened area for your most precious cargo.

Clearly the main theme for Phoenix is "luxury"

 

Is Phoenix better than other Constellation? Certainly! But only to a limited extend

Phoenix will not be a better exploration vessel if compared to Aquila

Phoenix will not be a better transporter if compared to Taurus

Then why should CIG make Phoenix a better fighter compare to Andromeda? It's up to discussion.

 

For me, I don't think it's logical for CIG to make Phoenix a better fighter compare to Andromeda. Simply because CIG, or any company, need to segregate their product coverage so one product will not steal other product's sales.

And since CIG's official description for Phoenix is Luxury Touring, the only thing we can be certain is:

 

Phoenix will be a better luxurious vessel as well as a Command ship if compare to other Constellation models

 

Closing: I'm not saying Phoenix is not better than others, but I'm simply saying it's not logical to compare two vessels with different focus. It's like comparing Idris-M to Idris-P and trying to figure out which is better. They each have their own pros and cons. 

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VoA your still missing the point that was made ages ago. The base equipment that comes with your ship will be crap. You will want to replace it and upgrade it ASAP.

 

No matter how much the brochure leads you to believe that you would never need anything more and that its 'top of the line' sadly that won't be the case.

 

If the starting equipment for the Pheonix is level 4 gear and the stock Andromeda is level 2 gear and the range of gear goes to 10.

 

It's still going to be crap.

 

Since we are using car analogies, if I bought a "Limited Edition" Lamborghini or Ferrari I wouldn't expect the "stock" parts to be crap.  I would hardly expect to buy one of these cars and immediately go and start replacing everything in the engine and stripping out the interior, it just doesn't make sense.  It's limited for a reason.

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Since we are using car analogies, if I bought a "Limited Edition" Lamborghini or Ferrari I wouldn't expect the "stock" parts to be crap.  I would hardly expect to buy one of these cars and immediately go and start replacing everything in the engine and stripping out the interior, it just doesn't make sense.  It's limited for a reason.

If the base Phoenix doesn't need to be upgraded because its stock components are so good then most LTI owners will apply this upgrade and cause a game imba. It would shortly be nerfed. Its just how the game model will be setup.

I do expect the base equipment to be superior to the Andromeda, but no where near game breaking levels.

Hence my comment on Andromeda lvl 2 gear vs Phoenix lvl 4 starting gear. Better yes, never need to upgrade? No.

I apologize if my comments were too 'strong'.

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.... I agree that arguing over them this early is silly but part of the fun of being involved this early in the development is theory crafting and debating about the ships.

It's all in good fun and is very informative to flush out.  There are too many people melting their Phoenix for the wrong or misrepresented reason and they are going to regret it :(  It is good at least we have this good debate (not really an argument)... here at SCB Forums so our Imperium members don't give up their "Superior Engineered" ship :)

 

 

 Is Phoenix better than other Constellation? Certainly! But only to a limited extend

Phoenix will not be a better exploration vessel if compared to Aquila

Phoenix will not be a better transporter if compared to Taurus

Then why should CIG make Phoenix a better fighter compare to Andromeda? It's up to discussion.

....

 

Phoenix will be a better luxurious vessel as well as a Command ship if compare to other Constellation models

The real reason why people are melting their Phoenix's is that they only see it "specializing" in Luxury.  This was poorly propagated and speculated ever since Sandi's Leaked photos.  Only recently have people have seen it as a superior Command Ship (Connie).  Most only see VIP parties where others are seeing War Room / Trade Negotiation Room / Diplomacy Room / Mission Briefing Room...... you would think this would be obvious to most but people are only "currently" jaded to see VIP party Room.

 

I agree with you on the Aquila and Taurus comparisons but not on the Andromeda (why --??-- because the Andromeda is a "Muli-Purpose" Jack of All Trades {{master of none}} ).... Constellation.  This entails that it isn't better than any Connie at all (actually it entails that it is weaker than every Connie) - but it give the most flexibility and the most options.  This (and the fact of "superior engineering"+ other items discussed already like the P72, Class 9 Weapon, Larger Power Plant, etc...) equates to the Phoenix as "grabbing the title" of "Champion Fighter" of all the Different Connie Variants.  Remember we are really only comparing other Connies (not the Phoenix to other ships).

 

 

Since we are using car analogies, if I bought a "Limited Edition" Lamborghini or Ferrari I wouldn't expect the "stock" parts to be crap.  I would hardly expect to buy one of these cars and immediately go and start replacing everything in the engine and stripping out the interior, it just doesn't make sense.  It's limited for a reason.

+1 Agreed !! :thumb:

 

 

I do expect the base equipment to be superior to the Andromeda, but no where near game breaking levels.

Hence my comment on Andromeda lvl 2 gear vs Phoenix lvl 4 starting gear. Better yes, never need to upgrade? No.

 

We agree @Wu Jen :thumb: on this ^^^ But again there will be things that some Variants will have that won't be available for Upgrades on other ships.  For the Phoenix this "exclusive list" would "probably" include (from what we know to date):

  • Stronger Hull (per Ben's comments)
  • War Room for Command and Control (or other functions) --- I doubt that CIG will make the Theater / Conference Room / Bar available as an upgrade.
  • P72 Archimedes
  • Lynx
  • Skylight - (yes this has a strategic value in combat for other crew members to visually spot attacking fighters or incoming boarding parties - though admittedly  limited value).
  • Systems that are probably harder to hack and better shielded vs EMP weapons
  • Class 9 Weapon (per Ben - for shooting down missiles since chaff and flares don't work to good on larger ships).
  • Hidden Secure (and shielded) compartments (though the Taurus has this too).
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@VoA Not everyone will regret melting their Phoenix. I know I don't. Because the Andromeda is multirole does not mean it is weaker than the others especially since we do not know the limits of customization. The thing is that every variant has its strengths and it's weaknesses. There is no all powerful variant.

Agreed... but we do know the Phoenix does start out with "Superior Engineered" items where the Andromeda doesn't... right?  We do know that certain things will be forever limited for option change (like the Phoenix's stronger Hull + probably all the other items I listed in the previous post)..... so if that is at minimum the case.... and both the Andromeda and Phoenix have the same exact Upgrade options then that places the Phoenix "always' at a "superior" fighting and command and control capabilities over the Andromeda ---- right?

 

However... the Andromeda will always be able to carry more Cargo than the Phoenix and will probably be cheaper to maintain an to insure.

 

+++

If I recall - your main reason why specifically wanted to Melt your Phoenix was because you didn't like the Clean Shinny Look (appearance).  What happens if CIG comes up with a Skin that you like that changes the appearance to one that you like (exterior and interior skins)... won't then... you regret melting the Phoenix and not having the "superior" fighting / command and control Connie? (even after all upgrade options between the two)....

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I think it is too early to lay claim that it will be superior especially based on stats that are nowhere near being finalized. All we have to go off of are descriptions and intended roles and because I have no need for a luxury touring craft or a C2 platform. I would much rather customize mine how I want. Just because it isn't a fit for me doesn't mean I'm one of those that see no need for it. I'm sure it will fill a number of roles we do not see now. I'm pretty sure the reason the Phoenix exists is to have another option for those who would buy an 890 jump.

 

I am not "claiming" the Superior Engineering that the Phoenix has ... it is in the Brochure.  It is CIG's intent to make the Phoenix superior in many ways .... that's why it costs more right????  Here is a Quote from Ben again...

 

"Why is it worth the pledge money? In addition to the more limited number created by RSI in a given model year, the ship uses top-of-the-line components wherever possible instead of the standard mass produced equipment seen on the other models. That’s the one thing we really wanted to get across in the new specs: every component should be better. It’s also currently the only way to get the (shaping up to be extremely cool) Archimedes snub fighter and the Lynx buggy."

 

If you "know" this is CIG's intent... and any future Stat Changes will reflect this... then many will regret Melting a Phoenix (time to Rise from the Ashes with the Truth :gr_angel: ) ------ otherwise.... CIG would have to "lower the price" of the Phoenix - correct?  I think you are getting too "stuck" on this "luxury" concept and not seeing how it really stacks up to the Andromeda.  If you really need the extra Cargo space... then sticking with your Andromeda won't be regretful... but I assure you .... once your Andromeda gets Destroyed or Boarded by Pirates using Missiles or Ballistic Weapons.... you are going to regret not having the Phoenix's Class 9 defense system that will shoot down those enemy missiles.... and you are gong to regret not having that Stronger Hull when you get holes in your hull with ballistic fire.... :gr_sad:

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Build "quality" doesn't come through in a virtual item.

It's not like you have nicer grounding staps, nicer welds, and clean solder joints.

 

Since this is a game based around building-up a ship, what really matters is how much higher/lower the 'max' is for the various stats.

 

So the phoenix is really :

+1 max power plant

+1 class 9 mount

-50% cargo capacity

 

 

Stock equipment being nicer is irrelivant, because all the the stock equipment will be replaced with things that are better.

(eg. At the moment people would just put omnisky 6's all around, replacing any/all the stock guns)

 

 

I'm hoping the calss 9 mount is a beast :)

 

-scheherazade

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I think the Class 9 is just a CIWS for taking out in coming missiles.

It'll be a beast against missiles, but it probably doesn't have enough fire power to take out a fighter.

Take it like the Battletech AMS:

Nice against SRM2 or LRM5, nearly useless against an Archer.

And since its in the back of the Phoenix it may serve as cover for an hurried retreat.

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